Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by El Castellano, Sep 7, 2016.
Exactly the point.
Oh, and rapaiz, call it correctly: FOOTBALL.
I predicate this statement with a disclaimer that I hate every single sport known to man, but as an American I don't have the faintest clue what you're talking about here. I don't know of any popular sport played with eggs.
I think the goal of the artists for Civ VI was to have everything on the screen be easily recognizable. The choice of the bull, whether some agree with it or not, accomplishes that. The bull is primarily associated with Spain and I suppose the Minoans.
Now, to be perfectly honest, I don't really care if they were to change the bull to something else but I do think that if you did a poll on the Spanish street about what the symbol of Spain is, a majority would say the bull. So, I would think that most people, Spanish or not, wouldn't have a problem with the bull portraying Spain in Civ VI. I think Firaxis sees it that way, as well.
Worse comes to worse, it can easily be changed in a mod.
Egg racing at picnics, perhaps?
I can understand your confusion because you call it "football", when in fact most of its playtime is played with the hands, and the playing tool has the shape of an egg, while the very definition of ball involves a sphere (at least according to Cambridge, my trusted linguistic source).
But the point was the misuse of popular symbols to represent historical entities.
I don't think the symbols are meant to represent any particular aspect of Spain except as something that is recognizable at a glance as Spain and has some amount of foundation in Spanish culture. The bull meets those pretty vague criteria and it's in. I don't particularly love it but I'm perfectly happy with it.
That said, as someone who lives in the United States which practices a weird sort of flag-idolatry as the official religion, I entirely understand that some people have a very strange (to me) obsession with national/cultural symbols and it's impossible to make everyone happy with a choice.
First, the separatists live in their world, whether it is better not consider its opinion on the symbols of Spain. More than once have linked several historical symbols with Francoism only by ignorance and by generate controversy, for them it is as if Franco had not died and we followed at that time.
Second, the bull is part of the Spain brand
What is the Spain brand?
It is a marketing campaign with a lot of tourist symbols which represent to Spain abroad in order to attract tourists and improve the bad image of Spain by the Franco regime and the black legend. (Http://marcaespana.es/en)
What symbols belong to the Spain brand?
The bull (representing bullfighting, for no other reason), paella, Mediterranean beach, Spanish omelette, flamenco, etc.
Third, the bull is a symbol of the Iberians, a pre-Roman people, but considering that Spain has 500 years of history, and is represented in the sixteenth century, I see no reason to use an Iberian symbol.
Fourth, as Spanish, I do not like representing the Spanish civilization as the civilization of bullfighting, like the Americans do not like to consider their country as the civilization of the hamburger.
Besides that they have many more options to represent Spain.
In short, the fact that today is representing Spain with the bull comes directly from the Spain brand and bullfighting, a Spanish tradiccion highly controversial since its inception. Therefore, and because my country is much more than that, I would like to they rectified and to do a more representative symbol with the Spanish civilization during its 500 years of existence, rather than the representation of its tourist image current.
Yeah glad I'm not the only one that thought the bull icon was rather, weird. I guess it brings ups unwanted controversy TBH (bullfighting), going with other more traditional simbols would have been better, the castles, the burgundy cross or the cross of Santiago would work as well.
As for Phillip looking "Mexican" I think its the tan that's giving that impression, if he was depicted with fairer skin he'd look closer to the original, then again, Phillip seems to be the "sexy" ****erpart to Cleopatra, so I guess I can see why they decided to give him a tan, it does fit with the more charming man's man/energetic angle they seem to be going with.
As a Spaniard, campaigning against the Bull as the icon for Spain in Civ VI is very low in my priority list.
This doesn't mean El Castellano is not making very good points here, most of which I share, or that I don't find every single alternative presented in this thread preferable to the Bull.
The thing is, as I've stated in numerous times in this forum, I believe Spain is excepcionally well represented in Civilization VI.
Just for fun, and for diversity, I'm adding some other options as well
5. Pillars of Hércules
I have already comented about them. Often overlooked, but they are symbol of Spain used since the very beginning, that is survived up to now (see current coat of arms). They also sum up quite nicely several traits of Spain's history: mediterranean heritage, geographical position (end of the mediterrranean), America's discovery (PLUS ULTRA motto - no need to write it, just placing the ribbon), seafaring importance (pillars are on sea), and the two most important ruling dinastyes (just in case you did not know, the crowns in the pillars are often represented as an Haupsburg Crown and a Bourbon Crown) - details will not be seen, but as with the motto, is just to know they are there. They even also speak of spain's heritage in the modern world, if we believe some of the stories regarding this unimportant symbol ($).
6. Fleur-de-Lysee cross
Proposed St.James cross is nice, both as patrón of spain and as military order, but talking about military orders (and other religious orders) I'd like to present the following images:
First two are the castillian military orders of Calatrava and Alcantara. Next is the aragonese military order of Montesa. Last one is the spanish-founded Dominican order.
¿see some pattern?. You can see them as well in many paintings of noblemen from the Spanish empire (along with the St.James cross). And the fact the shape is more widespread avoids concrete identification with an specific part of spain (St. James cross being also recognized as Galicia's symbol).
7. Quartered castle-lion (with intermediate cross).
(plus bonus pillars of hercules)
Many variation of this shape are seen in Spanish coins from the imperial age. Maybe a bit to complex, but if designed to fit in a coin, I don't think would be so bad to use as an icon. You could go mad and try to use the full quartering of spanish coat (replacing lower lion and castle by bars and chains), but yep, maybe too complex.
8. Other bulls
I've said before I don't mind that much a bull being used, but the symbol chosen, too plain and liveless. If you check random spanish flags with bull you'll see mostly the full bull is used and (except for the osborne one in first pic) in a more lively pose.
Going for the bull symbol, I'll try to match something similar to that or, if not, a side image as the one below (changing to silhouette, of course)
Huh. When I first saw Spain's bull icon, my first thought wasn't bullfighting, but rather the running of the bulls in Pamplona.
And now I'm thinking that we need four-hundred-and-nineteen more bulls.
As far as I can see, here's a summary of the question:
Pros for keeping it as was seen -
1) It represents ancient bull worship.
2) Modern culture as represented by the Osborne Bull.
3) If we have multiple leaders for each civ then the symbol has to represent more than just the monarchy (correct me if I'm wrong on this one).
4) Easily recognizable
5) It wasn’t actually Spain’s symbol, but one of a generic religions
1) Bull fighting
2) A large portion of Spain’s history has been under a monarchy
3) Represents pop-culture more than historical accuracy
4) Too similar to other civ’s potential symbol (Minoans, Sumerians)
5) Many other available symbols that some would see as more appropriate (the castle, Burgundian cross, Cross of Santiago, Osborne bull etc.)
6) Ancient bull symbols are primarily associated with the Iberians
If you accept all of the pros and cons I have posted here, then the argument is closer than one might think. With that said, in my opinion many of the points on the cons list have more weight than many on the pros list.
So let me know if this is a good summary of the discussion.
Good idea. Except to say that Luis Guzman is Puerto Rican.
I think the icon is unfortunate and does, indeed, make much more sense for Sumer than for Spain. Of the good ideas brought up here, I think the Cross of Santiago makes the most sense as it's iconic, historic, "feels" like Spain (your mileage may vary on this, of course) and looks good (which, to me, the Cross of Burgundy doesn't. At all.)
6) It's Spain's national animal
7) People associate the bull with strength and power
That's why I like the symbol. So I voted for option 1 (ignoring everything after the comma)
I'm always about coherence, so let's see what the other civs have as icons:
Civ - Icon - Type
America - Great Seal of the US - Official/Heraldic
Aztecs - Double-headed serpent - Cultural/Religious/Royal
Brazil - Brazilian Republican flag - Official/Heraldic
China - Azure Dragon head (imperial China) - Official/Heraldic
Egypt - Horus eye - Cultural/Religious/Royal
England - St Edward's Crown - Official/Heraldic
France - Fleur de Lis - Official/Heraldic
Germany - Iron Cross - Official/Heraldic
Japan - Cherry blossom (Sakura) - Official/Heraldic
Kongo - Ceremonial mask - Cultural/Religious
Norway - Valknut - Cultural/Religious
Scythia - Stag/deer - Cultural/Religious/Royal
Spain - Bull - Cultural/Popular
It's like playing a game of "pick the odd one out".
So yes, for the sake of coherence, I think Spain's icon should be changed.
Depending on which end of the noble animal you are facing...
I just relate it to Iberian/Mediterranean culture in general.
I am Spanish, and pretty much agree with everything Josephias wrote here. I don't mind the bull per se (there are worse choices), but the specific bull they've chosen is horrible. I think Texas before I think Spain. And most of the other options mentioned here would have been better. I particularly like the Hercules pillars idea, I think it's great, but the Castle or Santiago's cross would have been ok too. Ah well.
I am amused by non-Spanish people here telling Spanish people what they should think about the bull representing their civ
Separate names with a comma.