Gelion
Retired Captain
I'm just thinking of how the world and especially Europe would have evolved if Columbus did not discover America? Or failed in the attemt by coming back and declaring that "there's infinite ocean to the West"?
What if Columbus did not discover America?
- Thread starter Gelion
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~Corsair#01~
Deity
Some other guy with a twinkle in his eye, a bagfull of swash and a sackful of gold would have set off into the unknown two years later.
jonatas
tropicalista
trust me, someone else would have, and very soon.... the Portuguese already had colonies on the Azores for decades
sydhe
King of Kongs
Cabral would have discovered it in 1500.
Verbose
Deity
Leif Eriksson had already been there.
And the Basque whalers at New Foundland.
The New World has just been discovered one time more than it has been forgotten.
For Europe not to discover it we have to imagine some kind of event that around 1500 or before could have made it turn in on itself, and loose interest in travelling and trading overseas.
The only scenario I can think of is something like a new religion. Possibly a massive revamping of the Catholic church, nipping Protestantism in the bud and starting a self contained period of fervent religious cathedral-building effectively continuing the Middle Age, but without some of its dynamic traits.
Christianity would have gone the way of Islam in the ME, becoming pretty content with itself, convinced of its own superiority and with no interest in novelties or the world outside.
As for the Americas, anything might have happened, but most likely the cyclical rise and fall of corn-growing city states could just have gone on.
And the Basque whalers at New Foundland.
The New World has just been discovered one time more than it has been forgotten.
For Europe not to discover it we have to imagine some kind of event that around 1500 or before could have made it turn in on itself, and loose interest in travelling and trading overseas.
The only scenario I can think of is something like a new religion. Possibly a massive revamping of the Catholic church, nipping Protestantism in the bud and starting a self contained period of fervent religious cathedral-building effectively continuing the Middle Age, but without some of its dynamic traits.
Christianity would have gone the way of Islam in the ME, becoming pretty content with itself, convinced of its own superiority and with no interest in novelties or the world outside.
As for the Americas, anything might have happened, but most likely the cyclical rise and fall of corn-growing city states could just have gone on.
Yamamoto
Viriato, Lusitania Leader
Hmm... I suppose then that Apaches our Sioux would eventually develop their boats and some centuries later they would discover Europe...
Pherhaps England would pherhaps speak Navajo if that would happen...
That would be fun.
Pherhaps England would pherhaps speak Navajo if that would happen...
That would be fun.
Verbose
Deity
Nah, the Arawaks with their sea-going canoes for long distance trade between the Carribean islands would have beaten them to it.Yamamoto said:
Yamamoto
Viriato, Lusitania Leader
Hmm... well thinking!
Though we should not forgot Tupis. They, come from south, would eventually try to found a sea route to others sources of guarana, and eventually would found themselfs in the Portugal Coast.
They finally would join the native people (Portugal), and from there, they colonizre all Europe, (except England that as Verbose noticed would likely colonized by Arawaks).
I am pretty sure if Colombo didnt found America by lucky, that would happen. And todays missiles would be colourfull as the birds of South America.
Though we should not forgot Tupis. They, come from south, would eventually try to found a sea route to others sources of guarana, and eventually would found themselfs in the Portugal Coast.
They finally would join the native people (Portugal), and from there, they colonizre all Europe, (except England that as Verbose noticed would likely colonized by Arawaks).
I am pretty sure if Colombo didnt found America by lucky, that would happen. And todays missiles would be colourfull as the birds of South America.
Jerry Kraut
Chieftain
Indian tribes (which hadn't even discovered iron) sailing across the Atlantic ocean to annex Europe... yes, that's what probably would have happen...
Verbose
Deity
Discovering certainly.
Dunno 'bout conquering.
Dunno 'bout conquering.
Sorry O/T but Columbus was brutal. The Indian population of 10 million that lived north of Mexico when Columbus came would ultimately be reduced to less than a million. The Arawaks as far as I know don't exist because of him.
It's the only holiday I can think of where we (Americans) honor a mass murderer. As a person of Italian American descent I'm embarrassed we couldn't come up with a better Italian hero to celebrate.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/Columbus_PeoplesHx.html
It's the only holiday I can think of where we (Americans) honor a mass murderer. As a person of Italian American descent I'm embarrassed we couldn't come up with a better Italian hero to celebrate.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/Columbus_PeoplesHx.html
Verbose
Deity
As far as I know, isn't his Italian background is a bit fishy?
Mussolini comissioned some historians to come up with the 'proof' he was from Genua.
He could be, but I don't think anybody knows for sure.
Mussolini comissioned some historians to come up with the 'proof' he was from Genua.
He could be, but I don't think anybody knows for sure.
North King
blech
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Probably the Aztecs would have continued expanding or stagnated, the Inca would have advanced further still and maybe conquered more, the Mississippians would have risen to ever greater heights, as would many of the corn growing states in North America, maybe giving rise to real nations, though they would not have horses still...
steviejay
Now in Black and White!!
Indeed, Columbus was an incredibly dodgy fellow. once he landed in the New World he began to send a great deal of slaves back for sale, this irritated Isabelle and Fernando to the point where they had to replace him. they did not want slaves but Columbus was convinced he could get a good trade going.
It was also rumoured that Portuguese explorers had discovered Brazil before Columbus discovered the Carabean Islands. Some people said that the islands that Columbus discovered were actually part of the Arzores (spelling?) and as a result came under Portuguese juristiction. As a result, Spain and Portugal signed an agreement that everything found west of a particular line in the Atlantic would be Spanish, while everything east would be Portuguese. Oddly enough this line included a huge chunk of Brazil into the Portuguese sphere of influence. Coincidence?
It was also rumoured that Portuguese explorers had discovered Brazil before Columbus discovered the Carabean Islands. Some people said that the islands that Columbus discovered were actually part of the Arzores (spelling?) and as a result came under Portuguese juristiction. As a result, Spain and Portugal signed an agreement that everything found west of a particular line in the Atlantic would be Spanish, while everything east would be Portuguese. Oddly enough this line included a huge chunk of Brazil into the Portuguese sphere of influence. Coincidence?
privatehudson
The Ultimate Badass
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America had been discovered many times before, but they had always hushed it up (something like that was said by Oscar Wilde) 
Other than that someone would have done so sooner or later, probably within a decade.
Other than that someone would have done so sooner or later, probably within a decade.
Verbose said:
I dont think Mussolini was going to create a flase history like Hitler did; Mussolini, for all that he did wrong, was a natural elemt created by an Italian need to celibrate its own history after ity was unfied, a history that was glorious despite the area being kept seperated into little city states by the politics of other nations; as such I doubt he woudl persue creating an italian colombus; most of the other great new world exploreres were italians anyway, including Pirazo, conqeror of the Incans, and Jon Cabot, the man who intiated the age of English expidition was italian, as well as a great deal fo the other explorers; Italy's contribution in the exploration, and early conquest of the new world was crucial (hell, the new world is even named afterna italian map maker, Amerigo/Americo), and Mussolini had his pick of anyone to reserch the background of when looking for italian who had an important contribution to new world history; more likelly, Mussolini only commissioned more in depth reserch ionto his background, as i belive its long been estbalished Coloumbus was Genoan anyway.
Verbose
Deity
Read a book years ago...North King said:
Conrad and Demarest, "Religion and Empire", two archaeologists, one specilised on C. Am. the other on the Andes.
Both argued that the rapid collapse of the Aztec and Inca empires ware to a large extent due to internal problems.
The Spanish turned up just at a point when a gentle push could topple them.
In the case of the Aztects, the problem would have been that it was an empire based on continuous expansion. By the time Cortez came, this had already slowed down, which had put strains on the imperial project.
For the Incas, it was a conflict over real estate that was the problem. Since Incan rulers didn't properly "die" (only bodily), they continued to control vast estates.
And since the dead will always, in time, outnumber the living, more and more of the land was being "feudalized". This was starting to erode royal power, and part of the conflict between Athahualpa and Huascar.
Conrad and Demarest made a persuasive argument, but I can't tell if it really holds water.
In any case, left to their own devices, who's to say the Aztecs and the Incas wouldn't have come up with solutions.
Verbose
Deity
About Columbus, Xen:
I'm not saying Mussolini falsified history knowingly. I'm suggesting he, and his historians, engaged in a bit of wish-fulfillment.
It was already being said C. was Genovese. Question is if Mussolinis comission proved it. Many historians are unconvinced. Neither are they convinced he wasn't.
National mythology and history can't quite be separated in any case. Which becomes evident when we praise the superb historical accomplishments of the various nations we feel loyal to on these boards.
I'm not saying Mussolini falsified history knowingly. I'm suggesting he, and his historians, engaged in a bit of wish-fulfillment.
It was already being said C. was Genovese. Question is if Mussolinis comission proved it. Many historians are unconvinced. Neither are they convinced he wasn't.
National mythology and history can't quite be separated in any case. Which becomes evident when we praise the superb historical accomplishments of the various nations we feel loyal to on these boards.
Anthropoligist Ivan Van Sertima in his 1977 book, They Came Before Columbus. Van Sertima argues that Africans reached the Americas in two stages. The first wave, ancient Egyptians and Nubians , reached the Gulf of Mexico around 1200 BC and 800 BC, respectively, bringing with them writing and pyramid-building. Centuries later, around 1310 CE, the Mande people of West Africa went to Mexico, Panama, Ecuador, Colombia, Peru and various Caribbean islands, according to Van Sertima. The Olmec stone heads of Mexico, which have astonishingly African features, are among the archaeological and linguistic evidence Van Sertima presents
Van Sertima argued that the Atlantic's currents serve as natural marine conveyer belts: "Once you enter them, you are transported (even against your will, even with no navigational skill) from one bank of the ocean to the other," he said. "Thor Heyerdahl crossed the Atlantic in 1969 in a papyrus boat like those built by Africans before the time of Christ. Hannes Lindemann crossed the Atlantic in an African dugout in 12 days less than it took Amerigo Vespucci or Columbus to cross. Three currents can carry Africans to the Americas: off the Cape Verde islands, off the Senegambia coast, and off the southern coast of Africa. It is at the end of these currents that we have found Africans in America before Columbus."
Van Sertima argued that the Atlantic's currents serve as natural marine conveyer belts: "Once you enter them, you are transported (even against your will, even with no navigational skill) from one bank of the ocean to the other," he said. "Thor Heyerdahl crossed the Atlantic in 1969 in a papyrus boat like those built by Africans before the time of Christ. Hannes Lindemann crossed the Atlantic in an African dugout in 12 days less than it took Amerigo Vespucci or Columbus to cross. Three currents can carry Africans to the Americas: off the Cape Verde islands, off the Senegambia coast, and off the southern coast of Africa. It is at the end of these currents that we have found Africans in America before Columbus."
Verbose
Deity
Actually, there was any number of anthropologists, archaeologists in the 19th c. who proposed theories according to which the New World civilizations had been made by Old World people.
It was all very speculative, which is why careful, self-respecting scholars decided the New World was too hot a potatoe. Mostly they still stick to that, and the pre-columbian cultures are considered home-grown, though the link between Sibirian and New World schamanism see to be unproblematic.
I don't know this guy Van Sertima, but Heyerdahl was prolly always a better publicist than anhtropologist.
(He's very big in Norway though.)
It was all very speculative, which is why careful, self-respecting scholars decided the New World was too hot a potatoe. Mostly they still stick to that, and the pre-columbian cultures are considered home-grown, though the link between Sibirian and New World schamanism see to be unproblematic.
I don't know this guy Van Sertima, but Heyerdahl was prolly always a better publicist than anhtropologist.
(He's very big in Norway though.
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