What if the USSR wins the Cold War?
- Thread starter WWTVICTOR
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WWTVICTOR
Webroamer
Back after 20 hours.
June 8, 2011
Dear to all who has already replied or attempts to reply,
Greetings to you all. Perhaps I was wrong, I should delete the whole paragraph as there are rising anger from you and from me (I say once again: the chart should be neglected!), it was just for reference and it was a total failure, the Union of Socialist Republics might win the Cold War in a totally different ways or start from a different time (perhaps start from 40s or whatever, again just PERHAPS), the chart was really so ridiculous that has ever seen, just like what you have said, a comedy. I will never argue about the story again as I do not have any sense of humour or analysing the sequence of the Cold War and the USSR (why she falls, how impossible for her to win...). Gentlemen, I just want to discuss about your views towards how if the Soviet communists wins the Cold War. I didn't expect that there will be a total chaos foscusing on a stupid story, it is all my fault. I apologize for any inconvience made or time wasted.
Thank you for your time reading my message have fun in the forum (sign in relief).
Best regards,
WWT
June 8, 2011
Dear to all who has already replied or attempts to reply,
Greetings to you all. Perhaps I was wrong, I should delete the whole paragraph as there are rising anger from you and from me (I say once again: the chart should be neglected!), it was just for reference and it was a total failure, the Union of Socialist Republics might win the Cold War in a totally different ways or start from a different time (perhaps start from 40s or whatever, again just PERHAPS), the chart was really so ridiculous that has ever seen, just like what you have said, a comedy. I will never argue about the story again as I do not have any sense of humour or analysing the sequence of the Cold War and the USSR (why she falls, how impossible for her to win...). Gentlemen, I just want to discuss about your views towards how if the Soviet communists wins the Cold War. I didn't expect that there will be a total chaos foscusing on a stupid story, it is all my fault. I apologize for any inconvience made or time wasted.
Thank you for your time reading my message have fun in the forum (sign in relief).
Best regards,
WWT
I didn't see the story, and I kind of want to. Lousy forumers, not one of you quoted it!
Either way WWTVVICTOR, counter-factuals require a definite point of departure. For example, instead of asking; 'What would happen if Germany won WWII?' one should ask, 'What would have happened if Hitler died during Operation: Valkyrie?' That involves a clear point of departure. Even better would be; 'How could Germany have won the war?' or; 'Was it possible for Germany to win WWII?'
In other words, the quuestion you should be posing here is; 'Was it possible for the USSR to win the Cold War? If so, how?' Though even then, you still need to define 'winning.'
Either way WWTVVICTOR, counter-factuals require a definite point of departure. For example, instead of asking; 'What would happen if Germany won WWII?' one should ask, 'What would have happened if Hitler died during Operation: Valkyrie?' That involves a clear point of departure. Even better would be; 'How could Germany have won the war?' or; 'Was it possible for Germany to win WWII?'
In other words, the quuestion you should be posing here is; 'Was it possible for the USSR to win the Cold War? If so, how?' Though even then, you still need to define 'winning.'
Neonanocyborgasm
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There have already been plenty of discussions on a counterfactual Soviet victory in the Cold War. Suffice it to say that America would have to have such an outrageous internal crisis that it would take itself out of the game and leave the USSR left as the victor by default.
Silurian
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Why shouldn't Macedonia be a separate state.
I assume that this is something to do with the OP which has been deleted which makes this thread a bit headless.
History_Buff
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The OP made a mention of Macedonia getting annexed the USSR at some point, which was impossible, because at the time, it would have been part of Yugoslavia, already a Soviet Puppet.
So it was impossible because it didn't exist, not because it shouldn't.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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Meh, I liked them once, then... Perhaps it was that movie their music absolutely spoiled.
Actually, Yugoslavia wasn't a Soviet puppet at the time. Tito's policy was too independent - and aggressive - for Moscow's liking.
r16
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"Out of missiles . RTB "
showtime 603 , banked to right , on the lookout for the 602 . It was April 9th , 1965 and by 9 o'clock USN had its first victory by a McDonnell F-4 Phantom II . For some time Washington had been pressuring Hanoi to see the inevitable , but the Commies simply refused to and that was why the orders were now to teach a lesson to the Chicoms .Who back in 1950 had intervened to save North Korea and Ho must have been expecting something like it . Accordingly a Phantom intrusion into Hainan , that Chinese island just across the sea from Haiphong , was in the cards . Back in ' 58 The Chinese People's Liberation Army Airforce , no doubt taking heart from their massive size , had been harassing the Chinese Nationalists and Ike would not take it anymore . So Marines had been sent in with their deadly Sidewinder missiles and rumours had it , there were American pilots who had killed MiGs . And the Communists had to retreat with their tails between their legs . Seven years later the history was repeating itself and Cdr Fraser was looking forward to hear Lt(jg) Murphy to tell it all . How he had penetrated the 30 mile no-fly zone and the territorial waters to hit an unsuspecting training flight . All the while the linguists on board the USS Ranger were talking in Chinese on Chinese nets to give credibility to the ruse that the Chinese had fired first and Americans had acted in self defence . All those Reds polluting the air in New York would have to listen to tapes in the UN !
finally the grey/white Phantom appeared on the horizon . Fraser looked somewhat longingly at it , he would have liked to have that victory roll over the boat . Well it was Lady Luck , the Navy had lost a Phantom in an accident in this very mission and the delegated pilot of the day , Lt Cdr Greer had to console himself that he had survived . And his wingman had made history .
then something glinted , behind the approaching Phantom in the wild blue yonder and there was a flash and the inevitable white tail . It had to be the Showtime 610 firing to get his own scalp . "Damn it , Watkins why don' t ... " Fraser's jaw would have dropped down , but for the fact that he was wearing an oxygen mask . BuNo 151453 was there one moment , the next it was a mass of flames and torn metal lazily falling down . It was Fraser's RIO , Lt(jg) Billingsley that spotted the uninvited Communist first . Hell , when did they get missiles ? Showtime 603 and 610 turned in to attack the MiG and their surprises were not over yet .
so one single change and let the butterflies fly . Though it is still a very long shot . And it doesn't even begin to hide the fact it is kinda a thread hijack . Sorry for that .
showtime 603 , banked to right , on the lookout for the 602 . It was April 9th , 1965 and by 9 o'clock USN had its first victory by a McDonnell F-4 Phantom II . For some time Washington had been pressuring Hanoi to see the inevitable , but the Commies simply refused to and that was why the orders were now to teach a lesson to the Chicoms .Who back in 1950 had intervened to save North Korea and Ho must have been expecting something like it . Accordingly a Phantom intrusion into Hainan , that Chinese island just across the sea from Haiphong , was in the cards . Back in ' 58 The Chinese People's Liberation Army Airforce , no doubt taking heart from their massive size , had been harassing the Chinese Nationalists and Ike would not take it anymore . So Marines had been sent in with their deadly Sidewinder missiles and rumours had it , there were American pilots who had killed MiGs . And the Communists had to retreat with their tails between their legs . Seven years later the history was repeating itself and Cdr Fraser was looking forward to hear Lt(jg) Murphy to tell it all . How he had penetrated the 30 mile no-fly zone and the territorial waters to hit an unsuspecting training flight . All the while the linguists on board the USS Ranger were talking in Chinese on Chinese nets to give credibility to the ruse that the Chinese had fired first and Americans had acted in self defence . All those Reds polluting the air in New York would have to listen to tapes in the UN !
finally the grey/white Phantom appeared on the horizon . Fraser looked somewhat longingly at it , he would have liked to have that victory roll over the boat . Well it was Lady Luck , the Navy had lost a Phantom in an accident in this very mission and the delegated pilot of the day , Lt Cdr Greer had to console himself that he had survived . And his wingman had made history .
then something glinted , behind the approaching Phantom in the wild blue yonder and there was a flash and the inevitable white tail . It had to be the Showtime 610 firing to get his own scalp . "Damn it , Watkins why don' t ... " Fraser's jaw would have dropped down , but for the fact that he was wearing an oxygen mask . BuNo 151453 was there one moment , the next it was a mass of flames and torn metal lazily falling down . It was Fraser's RIO , Lt(jg) Billingsley that spotted the uninvited Communist first . Hell , when did they get missiles ? Showtime 603 and 610 turned in to attack the MiG and their surprises were not over yet .
so one single change and let the butterflies fly . Though it is still a very long shot . And it doesn't even begin to hide the fact it is kinda a thread hijack . Sorry for that .
The way for the US to lose the Cold War is to have economic policies that lead to a collapse great enough for the Soviets to look good in comparison. Because they mismanaged their own economy into the collapse of their empire.
I feel like I just swerved, narrowly missing The Scary Door. r16 is probably the second-most incomprehensible chap on these forums, and that covers a huge amount of ground.
GoodGame
Red, White, & Blue, baby!
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Or have the cold war go hot and to the victor the spoils....
Or have a paradigm shift change the nature of the geopolitical world (kind of like WW2) so one participitant of the Cold War is rapidly made irrelvant by the formation of new participants. E.g. say the third world unifies and becomes polarized to USSR international aid while the West decides to abandon all aid policies completely; that could shift the world's ideology away from democracy vs. communism to a human development ideology that one side would be shut out of.
r16
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we have one single change that presumes USN actually saw what destroyed F-4B BuNo 151453 . They naturally would be curious about it and the next morning the startled Hainan fisherman would look agape at the thundering RA-5 that was just about to penetrate inland ( for an overflight of the suspected airfield ) when it was shot down by a SAM . Now truly enraged , Washington would order a decisive strike on Hainan to knock out the evil installations and China would be legally in the Vietnam War . And with 15 divisions too . The war would not go well for Americans and they would not be able to hide it . Leading to inevitable Rightist backlash , Leftist counter moves and so on . Meanwhile pressures of war , the Russians were involved with but not in , would lead to necessary reforms that would improve economics . And the "Party" would manage to obscure their practised capitalism with yet more stories of Socialist Bloc glory from the battlefields in Asia and Africa , even South America . Something like 25 years on a Green-Social Democrat coalition would win the referandum to take West Germany out of NATO im 1989 , leading to the coalition's eventual collapse two years later .
r16
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the names , ranks and numbers are from an Osprey book ı happen to have somewhere . That Americans were returning fire before opened fire on is something no self respecting editor would have allowed , but then ı am neither an editor or self respecting . Regarding the clash Americans are ready to admit that it was not the Chinese who got that Phantom and their explanation of an own goal makes lots of sense ; though we , idiots of the 21st Century , are so ready to get astray . Thus when reading the reported Sidewinder shot on a sighted MiG that started allright then simply went in a straight line forgetting all about its target , the immediate thing that comes to mind is a lazer dazzler , but then it dawns on us it is 1965 , only 3 years after Americans invented lasers . Never minding the F-4Bs had their own IR devices and would have noticed the distraction themselves . Sci-fi fans DO make bad historians ...
and no , it is not blatant anti-Americanism . They have much better stories themselves . Consider this one : ı came across a tale somewhere in which one guy raised so many issues that the resident CIA operative indicated he was taking action . So the story goes American recon planes were using radioactive isotopes for stealth and dumping them into nature . He wouldn't have been so much vilified had he not explained the Roswell crash in the Popular Mechanics way . You know the little aliens were Japanese crewmen testing a captured WW2 aircraft on behalf of USAF . It was on the cover in 1993 , if ı remember it correctly . And the primary story doesn't add up to ; CIA gave up the isotopes stuff after the Philippinnes crash in 1961 . They even gave up the entire project to USAF ... No biting on the bait , though his story of how they were making their planes to fly faster than the Goverment issue tech books would have allowed was nice , and could have been gainfully employed . In all probability the guy was after some exposure , to built up grassroots support for a law suit , the kind only Americans can manage .
if one needs anti-environmental issues he/she should really study the "dirty" U-2s ; though ı don't doubt it one moment that there will be enough evidence that the declared "truth" is true enough . That they were planes carrying extra radar wave absorbing material that increased the drag far above a "clean" aircraft . And just of course the widespread use of the SA-2 missiles will be enough to explain the 5 U-2s the Chicoms shot down .
one might get carried far too much in such critiques and note how much the reputation of aliens have suffered in recent years that people are so confident about the chances of human victory in an extra-terrestial war . Not that there are aliens . It is just this end of history feeling of the 1990s that has seeped too deep , after the good old West defeating the mighty Reds , what is the combat value of intra galactic travelling creep ? Just by sheer coincidence ı saw a wiseman defending the honour of the Martians and their invasion of the Earth 1898ish , only minutes ago and of course it is open to wonder who gave hime the right to do so ... Only to avoid detracting too much from the thread , let me shut up with saying it is the fault of George Lucas and Ewoks . And they are still worthy ...
just don't feel put off by me , ı am not that worthy . Today's biggie is international hackery attacked official sites , last night pro goverment TV stations were all smug about the victory , how our experts defeated them and today ı can't access yet another of favourite sites . Obviously no contact between them , yet it bores me to death , that case by case pleading ...
and no , it is not blatant anti-Americanism . They have much better stories themselves . Consider this one : ı came across a tale somewhere in which one guy raised so many issues that the resident CIA operative indicated he was taking action . So the story goes American recon planes were using radioactive isotopes for stealth and dumping them into nature . He wouldn't have been so much vilified had he not explained the Roswell crash in the Popular Mechanics way . You know the little aliens were Japanese crewmen testing a captured WW2 aircraft on behalf of USAF . It was on the cover in 1993 , if ı remember it correctly . And the primary story doesn't add up to ; CIA gave up the isotopes stuff after the Philippinnes crash in 1961 . They even gave up the entire project to USAF ... No biting on the bait , though his story of how they were making their planes to fly faster than the Goverment issue tech books would have allowed was nice , and could have been gainfully employed . In all probability the guy was after some exposure , to built up grassroots support for a law suit , the kind only Americans can manage .
if one needs anti-environmental issues he/she should really study the "dirty" U-2s ; though ı don't doubt it one moment that there will be enough evidence that the declared "truth" is true enough . That they were planes carrying extra radar wave absorbing material that increased the drag far above a "clean" aircraft . And just of course the widespread use of the SA-2 missiles will be enough to explain the 5 U-2s the Chicoms shot down .
one might get carried far too much in such critiques and note how much the reputation of aliens have suffered in recent years that people are so confident about the chances of human victory in an extra-terrestial war . Not that there are aliens . It is just this end of history feeling of the 1990s that has seeped too deep , after the good old West defeating the mighty Reds , what is the combat value of intra galactic travelling creep ? Just by sheer coincidence ı saw a wiseman defending the honour of the Martians and their invasion of the Earth 1898ish , only minutes ago and of course it is open to wonder who gave hime the right to do so ... Only to avoid detracting too much from the thread , let me shut up with saying it is the fault of George Lucas and Ewoks . And they are still worthy ...
just don't feel put off by me , ı am not that worthy . Today's biggie is international hackery attacked official sites , last night pro goverment TV stations were all smug about the victory , how our experts defeated them and today ı can't access yet another of favourite sites . Obviously no contact between them , yet it bores me to death , that case by case pleading ...
ParkCungHee
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Whenever I'm here, I think I'm in The-Zone-Where-Normal-Things-Don't-Happen-Very-Often.
It makes me question who no.1 is.
Racsoviale
Smoke me a kipper!
In my masochistic fantasyworld I would like to see a thread with R16, Millman and Dommie argue over something, maybe even have Dachs trying in all his power to get something comprehensible out of the whole mess
It's one of the two guys Racs mentions above, I'll tell you that much.
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