What is mimimum number of turns for 6 cities?

[cv431410]

What is the minimum number of turns for 6 cities?

The question is obviously depend on your starting map, but let us assume you have an optimal start:

(1) You can have anything you want; if you want to chop, there are enough forest tiles; if you want production, there are cows (2), mines (2), irons (1), marble (1), stone (1); if you want to use slavery; there are two corns; ...

(2) Cities do not need warrior;

(3) Any size of cities are acceptable;

(4) Cities can have minimum distance;

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(5) You obviously need workers; you can make as many workers as you want.

(6) Select any civs you wish (some civs give you + 25% for workers, some civs give you +50% for settlers);

(7) No advanced start.

(8) You start with 0 workers, you do have to build workers if you need them;

(9) Ancient era, starting with 1 settler and 1 other unit.

(10) Fast speed.

(11) Second city can produce settler also.


Can you list your answer and post strategy please?

 

[tmarcl]

What is the mimimum number of turns for 6 cities?

The question is obviously depend on your starting map, but let us assume you have an optimal start:

(1) you can have anything you want; if you want to chop, there are enough forest tiles; if you want production, there are cows (2), mines (2), irons (1), marble (1), stone (1), .... ; if you want to use slavery; there are two corns; ...

(2) Cities do not need warrior;

(3) Any size of cities are acceptable;

(4) Cities can have minimum distance;

0x000x0
0000000
0000000
x00x00x
0000000
0000000
0x000*0

(5) You obviously need workers, you can make as many workers as you want.

(6) Select any civ you wish (some civ give you + 25% for worker, some civ give you +50% for settlers);

(7) No advanced start.

For a couple of these, you're really assuming an unrealistic start, and thus, you wouldn't get a realistic answer. If I have unlimited workers and unlimited forests, then I'll have five settlers built in five turns.

However, the fastest I've ever been able to build a settler from the get-go (pre-Bronze Working) is six turns (I don't remember who I was playing). So, to get 5 settlers would take 30 turns. Obviously, actually settling the cities would take longer than that (minimum, I believe, is two squares apart?). So, assuming an all flatland surrounding, it would take 8 turns to settle a city (six to build, two to actually settle). 8*5 is 40 turns.

However, by this point, the AI has already built one or two stacks and is ready to invade, so your six undefended cities will be captured by turn 41, and it's game over.

Marc

 

[cv431410]

>>
If I have unlimited workers and unlimited forests, then I'll have five settlers built in five turns.
<<

Well let me add more assumptions:

(8) You start with 0 workers, you do have to build workers if you need them;

(9) Ancient era.

(10) Fast speed.

>>
However, the fastest I've ever been able to build a settler from the get-go (pre-Bronze Working) is six turns (I don't remember who I was playing). So, to get 5 settlers would take 30 turns. Obviously, actually settling the cities would take longer than that (minimum, I believe, is two squares apart?). So, assuming an all flatland surrounding, it would take 8 turns to settle a city (six to build, two to actually settle). 8*5 is 40 turns.
<<


I do not understand this:

"it would take 8 turns to settle a city (six to build, two to actually settle). "

To my best knowledge:

Settling on Marble ==> 3p/turn
Forest hill ==> 3p/turn
Special civ ==> +50% for settler

Total ==> 9P/turn

Settler costs 65P, that will be 8 turns minimum. 6 turns ==> 65/6 = 11 p/turn.

How can you get 11 P/turn, assuming ancient start?

 

[Elandal]

Try Joao of Portugal: Exp/Imp, starts with Fishing / Mining.

I'll assume epic speed for this, as I know numbers for that.

Settle on coastal plains hill stone, work forested plains hill (6hpt), build workboat (45 hammers) for 8 turns (3h overflow). Work fish, build workboat, growth to two in 7 turns with second workboat completing. From this on, work two fish for F+8 and 3hpt from city tile. Unfortunatelly we don't get any benefit from exp this way and only one hammer from imp, but this is still faster than working hammers.

With effective 11 hpt, worker completes in 9 turns (90 hammers, so 9 hammer overflow but now idea how that counts from food so I'll just lose it now).

From this on, worker will move + chop, so every 6 turns we get 30 hammers. In 6 turns we get 72 hammers (imp bonus counted) for settler, so 72 + 45 = 117 hammers / 6 turns.

Counting five settlers this is (149 * 5) / (117/6) = 39 turns. Last settler needs settles on second turn from being trained.

Turn counts:
15 turns (workboats)
9 turns (worker)
39 turns (settlers)
+1 turns (settler move + settle)
= 64 turns.

Considering the calculations above contain a number of errors (eg. I counted chops into hpt, which isn't true, and I didn't really consider how overflow works) it's definitely under 70 turns still. Assuming everyhing scales nicely, then this is 64 / 1.5 = 43 or so turns on normal speed, which again is something else on fast speed.

Now, as worker costs us 90 hammers and did at least 6 chops for thus 180 hammers total, second worker probably speeds this up a bit (chopped it gains from expansive trait as well).

Fast worker might be worth something, so someone may well want to calculate Joao of India (unrestricted leaders), although as starting techs differ it's a completely different scenario.

 

[win lenten]

What is the mimimum number of turns for 6 cities?

I'd be interested to know cause sometimes at the start I'll try to rapidly expand my empire via settlers, settling the land as fast as I can to hold claim the food heavy locations and resources. In certain situations and on certian map types this can be great. Claiming at least 5 maybe 6 nice city locations before say...around 1 AD on a normal size/speed is sometimes crucial I say. Especially if I'm going for a peaceful builder strategy without early war, maybe on a Pangea type map with Gandi for instance.

But if i fail and the AI intrudes on my land there always might be...a whoopin'.

Gotta admit though, this was a much bigger deal in Warlords than in BTS. In Warlords the AI started with a worker and an archer on monarch+ iirc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in BTS the AI expands in the 1st expansion phase slower without the free worker. It spits out it's first settlers a decent amount of turns later! Giving you a nice window to REX into i think.

 

[HolyHandGrenade]

What is the mimimum number of turns for 6 cities?

Standard answer: Quecha/Warrior rush! Choose a crowded map get a hammer rich start and produce Quechas/Warriors(BtS) like crazy and rush your immediate neighbors until you have your 6 cities. Please calculate by yourself how long it takes to produce the unit and how long you have to move around (and don't forget that your warriors will get promotions when killing opponents)

 

[cv431410]

Try Joao of Portugal: Exp/Imp, starts with Fishing / Mining.

I'll assume epic speed for this, as I know numbers for that.

Settle on coastal plains hill stone, work forested plains hill (6hpt), build workboat (45 hammers) for 8 turns (3h overflow). Work fish, build workboat, growth to two in 7 turns with second workboat completing. From this on, work two fish for F+8 and 3hpt from city tile. Unfortunatelly we don't get any benefit from exp this way and only one hammer from imp, but this is still faster than working hammers.

With effective 11 hpt, worker completes in 9 turns (90 hammers, so 9 hammer overflow but now idea how that counts from food so I'll just lose it now).

From this on, worker will move + chop, so every 6 turns we get 30 hammers. In 6 turns we get 72 hammers (imp bonus counted) for settler, so 72 + 45 = 117 hammers / 6 turns.

Counting five settlers this is (149 * 5) / (117/6) = 39 turns. Last settler needs settles on second turn from being trained.

Turn counts:
15 turns (workboats)
9 turns (worker)
39 turns (settlers)
+1 turns (settler move + settle)
= 64 turns.

Considering the calculations above contain a number of errors (eg. I counted chops into hpt, which isn't true, and I didn't really consider how overflow works) it's definitely under 70 turns still. Assuming everyhing scales nicely, then this is 64 / 1.5 = 43 or so turns on normal speed, which again is something else on fast speed.

Now, as worker costs us 90 hammers and did at least 6 chops for thus 180 hammers total, second worker probably speeds this up a bit (chopped it gains from expansive trait as well).

Fast worker might be worth something, so someone may well want to calculate Joao of India (unrestricted leaders), although as starting techs differ it's a completely different scenario.

Thank you for the post.

I have modified the the assumptions to add:

(11) Second, thirdy, ... city can also produce settlers.

You can actually do a bit faster because the second city can expand also. Yoy can safely settle 3 coastal cities.

Can you modify your post?

Also, since I only play faster setting, I am not familiar with epic speed. For Joao of Portugal, Exp/Imp,

Exp ==> + 25% hammer for workers
Imp ==> + 50% hammer for settlers

Did you add these two? I could not tell because i do not play epic games.

 

[cv431410]

Standard answer: Quecha/Warrior rush! Choose a crowded map get a hammer rich start and produce Quechas/Warriors(BtS) like crazy and rush your immediate neighbors until you have your 6 cities. Please calculate by yourself how long it takes to produce the unit and how long you have to move around (and don't forget that your warriors will get promotions when killing opponents)

I think this strategy will take longer to get six cities up than Elandal's work boat strategy.

 

[HolyHandGrenade]

I think this strategy will take longer to get six cities up than Elandal's work boat strategy.

I tried it the last days with BtS on Epic not on Quick. And on Epic I get the 1st city at turn 10. 2 turns later this city is out of anarchy and producing warriors too. For city 3-6 you need 2-3 warriors ... too lazy to do an exact calculation

FYI: In BtS you can grab the 1st opponent with your starting warrior

 

[DaveMcW]

Play on Great Plains and use grassland deer.

 

[cv431410]

FYI: In BtS you can grab the 1st opponent with your starting warrior

LOL, AI learned building a worker first from sentient beings.

 

[cv431410]

Play on Great Plains and use grassland deer.

Need number, need math?

 

[HolyHandGrenade]

LOL, AI learned building a worker first from sentient beings.

The AI starts building a warrior, but the autom. tile assignment prefers floodplains. So the only chance an AI has is either starting on PH or having no food only tiles

 

[Belisar]

Warrior rush with 2,3 warriors works only on low difficult levels.

 

[DaveMcW]

Marble hill city center plus grassland deer gives 3 4.
Imperial boosts it to 3 6.
This gives a settler in 8 turns on quick.
Add 2 turns for walking to the next marble/deer site.
10 turns for 2 cities.
20 turns for 4 cities.
30 turns for 8 cities.

 

[cv431410]

Marble hill city center plus grassland deer gives 3 4.
Imperial boosts it to 3 6.
This gives a settler in 8 turns on quick.
Add 2 turns for walking to the next marble/deer site.
10 turns for 2 cities.
20 turns for 4 cities.
30 turns for 8 cities.

LOL, this is very good. Just make an alternative:


Marble hill city center plus forest hill gives 0 6.
Imperial boosts it to 0 9.

 

[DaveMcW]

In a real game, city #6 will be founded at turn 27 due to overflow and being one step closer to the capital.

 

[cv431410]

You are correct. I worked out the details:

Overflow can only save you 2 turns:

8 turns first
7 turns second
7 turns third

so

Turns _____ city _____ comment
1 _____ city 1
10 _____ city 2 _____ 8 + 2 = 10
17 _____ city 3 _____ 8 + 7 + 2 = 17
20 _____ city 4 _____ 10 + 8 + 2
24 _____ city 5 _____ 8 + 7 + 7 + 2
27 _____ city 6 _____ 17 + 8 + 2

27 turns for 6 cities

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

You do not have to count 2 turns travel except the last settler, so

You do, actually. The capital spits out three settlers, so you need two more. the first of these is delayed by the travel time to settle city #2. The last of these is delayed by the travel time to settle city #6.

[pre]
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..3333333355555555..
[/pre]

Ellapsed time three settlers plus 2 travels.

 

[cv431410]

Yes, Voice, you are correct.

City 1 is actually very fast, by turn 22, it already produced 3 settlers: 8 turn, 8+7 turns, 8 + 7 + 7 turns. Add 2 more turns for traveling, by turn 24, its job is done.

The problem is city 3; starting from turn 17, it takes 10 turns to get city 6 up.

I am working on an alternative:

Worker first in a city:
Marble hill city center plus grassland deer gives 3 4.
Expansive boosts it to 3 5.
You get the first worker in 40/8 = 5 turns.

Will this speed up a bit? More posts coming ...