What is mimimum number of turns for 6 cities?

[cv431410]

Sorry. I have disabled everything in my Internet explorer. I see it now; here it is:

Great Plains Map

Joao II (Exp, Imp)

(Starts with Mining)
Research Bronze Working (8)

City #1: Settled on Plains Hill Marble. Grassland Deer in inner ring. Plains Hill Copper in BFC.
City #2 & #3: Settled on Plains Hill Stone. Grassland Deer in inner ring. Shares Plains Hill Copper with City #1.

Turn 00: Settler #1. City #1 founded --> Worker(5).
Turn 05: Worker completed --> Settler(8). Move Worker onto Hill and Mine(4).
Turn 08: Mine completed --> Settler(4).
Turn 09: Copper revealed! --> Settler(2). Move Worker onto City 1 Forest and Chop(4).
Turn 11: Settler #2 completed --> Settler(5).
Turn 12: Chop completed --> Settler(3). City #2 founded --> Settler(10).
Turn 13: Move Worker onto City 3 Forest and Chop(4).
Turn 15: Settler #3 completed --> Settler(5). City #2 take Copper --> Settler(4).
Turn 16: City #3 founded & Chop completed --> Settler(7).
Turn 18: City #3 take Copper --> Settler(3).
Turn 21: Settlers #4, #5 & #6 completed.
Turn 22: Cities #4, #5 & #6 founded on flatland.

 

[cv431410]

Summary:

Optimal cases (grassland-forest-deer, plain-marble-hill, floodplain-cow, plain-hill-forest-deer, …)

OTAKUjbski Algorithm
22 turns, 6 cities, 1 worker

Standard cases (Not allowed: grassland-forest-deer, plain-marble-hill, floodplain-cow, plain-hill-forest-deer, …)

OTAKUjbski Algorithm
27 turns, 6 cities, 1 worker

cv431410 Algorithm
28 turns, 6 cities, 2 workers

Can anyone improve these limits?

For example, by replacing grassland forest-dear (3F1P) by plain-hill-forest-deer (3P1F)?

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Internet explorer.

Well there's your problem, lol.

For example, by replacing grassland forest-dear (3F1P) by plain-hill-forest-deer (3P1F)?

Except maybe in fantasy maps, I didn't think tiles like that existed.

That being the case, I bet I can push it up to 21 turns!

 

[cv431410]

Yes, I saw one yesterday in TBG map.

 

[Elandal]

Fantasy map can have anything - floodplain corn for example.
Great Plains map places iirc cows and deer (probably some other resources as well) on more base terrains than standard maps do, but the important one here is grassland forest deer, as the only FP=4 tile unimproved is deer because it's the only one that both adds F/P to base tile and can be forested - giving us F1P3 (plains hill forest deer), F2P2 (plains forest deer), F3P1 (grassland forest deer) tiles.

So: plains (hill or flat) forest deer is normally available in capitol. Both of those and grassland forest deer are available on Great Plains map, making it the best non-fantasy map for finding optimal case.

 

[cv431410]

See, Elandal seconds that "plains (hill ...) forest deer is normally available".

 

[DaveMcW]

I have never seen a deer hill.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I have never seen a deer hill.

Me neither ... but apparently we've left the realm of reality and into fantasy maps ... in which case I'm certain I can push that number even lower (not that it really matters, since this is the most unreal situation you'll ever find yourself in and so therefore has no applicable value).

A Grassland Forest Deer = 31. Imp == 31.5 == total of 4.5 production units to Settlers.

A Plains Hill Forest Deer = 13. Imp == 14.5 == total of 5.5 production units to Settlers.

[EZmode]

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Fantasy Case:

Joao II (Exp/Imp)

Pop Bronze Working from a Hut. (OMG!)

City #1: Founded on Marble Plains Hill. Plains Hill Forest Deer & Plains Hill Forest Copper available.
City #2: Founded on Stone Plains Hill. Plains Hill Forest Deer available.
City #3: Founded on Flat Plains Ivory. Plains Hill Forest Copper available.
City #4, #5, #6: Founded on flatland 3 tiles out.

Turn 00: Settler(0)-->{City1};Worker(5)[5]
Turn 04: OMG! I popped BW!
Turn 05: Worker(0)-->Settler(7)[12]; Mine/Chop(6)
Turn 10: Mine/Chop(0)-->Settler(1)[11]
Turn 11: Settler(0)-->Settler(4)[15]; Mine/Chop(6){City3}
Turn 13: {City2}-->Settler(7)[20]
Turn 15: Settler(0)-->Settler(5)[20]
Turn 16: {City3};Mine/Chop(0)-->Settler(4)[20]
Turn 20: Settler(0)x3
Turn 21: {City4, City5, City6}​

(EDIT: This exercise is getting rather pointless, because the odds of getting a start like the one above is probably something like 1 in 25 quadrillion!)

At any rate, I see a couple limiting factors which make 21 turns what I believe is the ceiling:

• Worker turns: The earliest we can get out a Worker is Turn 05. Mining and Chopping both take (3) turns (+1) for moving onto the Hill/Forest. This means we will reap the benefits of the Worker on Turns [09, 13, 17, 21, ...]. We can either utilize the Worker 3 times before turn 21, or we can shave off a Worker turn somewhere. The only ways to shave off a Worker turn is to build roads (not applicable this early in the game), mine flatland (like Plains Copper) or to Mine/Chop at the same time (which takes a total of 5 turns instead of 6).
  
  
• Bronze Working: In every previous example, Bronze Working was researched normally and finished on the 9th turn. Especially where the topic of shaving Worker turns is concerned, mining flatland is not possible without knowledge of the resource on it, hence BW limits us. (I escaped this limit before by mining a 'normal' hill and waiting for the resource to reveal naturally.)
  
  
• City-founding dates: This is specific to shaving Worker turns, because in my previous examples, I've timed pre-chops to finish as the city is being founded. However, it doesn't do any good when the chop is shaved off and done earlier than when the city is founded (thus sending the hammers to the wrong city).

So, given these observations, I think I'm done with the flights-of-fancy.

 

[cv431410]

GJ, GJ (Good Job).

Once upon time, a long long time ago (7 days ago ), I thought 25 turns was the limit.

We all make mistakes "rarely" .

I have noticed that gap between optimal-start and standard-start has increased to 27 - 21 = 6, meaning 27 is not the real limit.

 

[Elandal]

I have never seen a deer hill.

Not as common as flatlands, but I can probably find a deer on a hill every 2-3 games. In capitol rarely - I remember two cases (of which in one I had flat plains forest deer and hill plains forest deer + seafood + some hills).


In CIV4BonusInfos.xml under BONUS_DEER you can find both bHills and bFlatlands to be 1.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I have noticed that gap between optimal-start and standard-start has increased to 27 - 21 = 6, meaning 27 is not the real limit.

In my 27 turn example, I used a bare Plains Hill and stuck strictly to your requirements.

If Plains Hill Copper is substituted, you can shave off another 2 turns.

However, I think I'm done with these exercises here. I've been doing more broad, practical research and would like to focus the rest of my time on that. (In fact, it was lessons learned from that research which led to me shaving turns off these examples here!)

Hopefully, I'll have my initial report done within the next couple days...

 

[cv431410]

I think the assumption of Copper in capital is reasonable; however, I am not sure about "Pop Bronze Working from a Hut". It did happen to me before; I even got metal casting once and CoL once (classic start); then get crossbow/Civil service from oracle really early. Imagine that, a few turns into a game after classic start, you already have crossbow or civil service. "Pop Bronze Working from a Hut" should belong to the optimal-start, not standard-start.

If it does not take too much of your time (I would say 30 minutes or so), why not work it out and list it here. It has to be done; if not you, someone else has to work it out. We would rather credit the algorithm to you.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I think the assumption of Copper in capital is reasonable; however, I am not sure about "Pop Bronze Working from a Hut". It did happen to me before; I even got metal casting once and CoL once (classic start); then get crossbow/Civil service from oracle really early. Imagine that, a few turns into a game after classic start, you already have crossbow or civil service. "Pop Bronze Working from a Hut" should belong to the optimal-start, not standard-start.

If it does not take too much of your time (I would say 30 minutes or so), why not work it out and list it here. It has to be done; if not you, someone else has to work it out. We would rather credit the algorithm to you.

Well, that was the "Fantasy Start" I had to pop the hut in, so I figured it was acceptable.

What do you want me to work out, exactly? The modified 22 start I accomplished in 27 turns? ... the one where if I add Copper to the Plains Hill I can shave off a turn or two?

 

[cv431410]

I think in the standard-start, all of the following are not allowed:

3P-city:
plain-hill-marble,
plain-hill-stone,
plain-hill-elephant, (not sure this one exist)
...

4FP working tiles:
grassland-forest-deer (3F1P),
plain-hill-forest-deer (3P1F),
plain-forest-deer(2F2P),

floodplain-some-animal (4F?),
...

The current limit is 27, can you reduce it to 25?

By then I will have to agree with you that we have reached to the end of this road; which is of course the begining of many other roads, as you have rightfully questioned earlier: what about units, workers, ...

Something like this:

What is the minimum number of turns to get 6 cities and 9 workers?
What is the minimum number of turns to get 6 cities, 9 workers and 20 axe/spear/swords?
...

 

[Elandal]

Hill elephants don't exist, so that doesn't really matter.

Allowing ONE 3P city (that is not capitol, as then you'd need to move on turn one losing one turn - well I guess you can do that if that does shave more than one turn of result) sounds reasonable.

Also, allowing two deer in capitol is reasonable. In tundra starts deer is common in capitol, and having two deer is not unheard of. It's good luck - just like having copper in capitol would be. Technically this would limit our total resources a bit - eg. elephants wouldn't be available if deers are (different temp zones), but I doubt that's a big limitation really. Choose elephant or deer.

4FP tiles outside capitol are possible only if it's the plains forest (hill or flat) deer in capitol 3rd ring (outermost normalized ring) or borrowed from capitol fat cross. Again, if you choose to have two deers in capitol and then present map where you can settle so you can use them for another city, then it's just fine.

When really optimizing it, I assume things like overlapping BFCs and borrowing resources is acceptable. Just have to stay in map generator rules and maintain reasonable "lucky, even extremely lucky, but I've seen that once" limit ("seen that once" would give three plains forest deers in my case - two in capitol BFC one in third ring).

 

[cv431410]

Answer to:
>>
Allowing ONE 3P city (that is not capitol, as then you'd need to move on turn one losing one turn - well I guess you can do that if that does shave more than one turn of result) sounds reasonable.
<<

Current condition:
>>
City #1: Settled on Plains Hill. Riverside Plains Ivory in inner ring. Plains Hill in BFC.
City #2: Settled on Plains Ivory. Plains Forest in inner ring.
City #3: Settled on Plains Ivory. Plains Forest in inner ring. Shares Plains Hill with City #1.
<<

The current record for the standard-start is 27 turns, which requires

(1) Three 2p-cities + three 2P1F-tiles,

Furthermore, you must settle city-2 and city-3 the next turn, which requires:

(2) City-2 and city-3 settle on Ivory, not on plain-hill.
(3) City-1 has river-side Ivory.

We expect this limit to be reduced further via

(4) Plain-hill-forest Copper, (1 chopping + 1 mine in 7 turns)

which will be shared between city-1, city-2 and city-3.

These are already very, very restricted conditions.

 

[cv431410]

Summary:

1. Optimal start (3P, 3P1F, 2F2P, 3F1P tiles allowed, Hut allowed)

6 cities, 1 worker in 21 turns (Pop Bronze Working from a Hut allowed)


OTAKUjbski Algorithm:

City #1: Founded on Marble Plains Hill. Plains Hill Forest Deer & Plains Hill Forest Copper available.
City #2: Founded on Stone Plains Hill. Plains Hill Forest Deer available.
City #3: Founded on Flat Plains Ivory. Plains Hill Forest Copper available.
City #4, #5, #6: Founded on flatland 3 tiles out.

Turn 00: Settler(0)-->{City1};Worker(5)[5]
Turn 04: OMG! I popped BW!
Turn 05: Worker(0)-->Settler(7)[12]; Mine/Chop(6)
Turn 10: Mine/Chop(0)-->Settler(1)[11]
Turn 11: Settler(0)-->Settler(4)[15]; Mine/Chop(6){City3}
Turn 13: {City2}-->Settler(7)[20]
Turn 15: Settler(0)-->Settler(5)[20]
Turn 16: {City3};Mine/Chop(0)-->Settler(4)[20]
Turn 20: Settler(0)x3
Turn 21: {City4, City5, City6}


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2. Optimal start (3P, 3P1F, 2F2P, 3F1P tiles allowed, Hut Not allowed)

6 cities, 1 worker in 22 turns:


OTAKUjbski Algorithm:

Joao II (Exp, Imp)
(Starts with Mining)
Research Bronze Working (8)
City #1: Settled on Plains Hill Marble. Grassland Deer in inner ring. Plains Hill Copper in BFC.
City #2 & #3: Settled on Plains Hill Stone. Grassland Deer in inner ring. Shares Plains Hill Copper with City #1.

Turn 00: Settler #1. City #1 founded --> Worker(5).
Turn 05: Worker completed --> Settler(8). Move Worker onto Hill and Mine(4).
Turn 08: Mine completed --> Settler(4).
Turn 09: Copper revealed! --> Settler(2). Move Worker onto City 1 Forest and Chop(4).
Turn 11: Settler #2 completed --> Settler(5).
Turn 12: Chop completed --> Settler(3). City #2 founded --> Settler(10).
Turn 13: Move Worker onto City 3 Forest and Chop(4).
Turn 15: Settler #3 completed --> Settler(5). City #2 take Copper --> Settler(4).
Turn 16: City #3 founded & Chop completed --> Settler(7).
Turn 18: City #3 take Copper --> Settler(3).
Turn 21: Settlers #4, #5 & #6 completed.
Turn 22: Cities #4, #5 & #6 founded on flatland.



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3. Standard Start ( No 3P, 3P1F, 2F2P, 3F1P tiles allowed, Hut Not allowed)

6 cities, 1 worker in 27 turns:


OTAKUjbski Algorithm:

Joao II (Exp, Imp)

(Starts with Mining)
Bronze Working (8)

City #1: Settled on Plains Hill. Riverside Plains Ivory in inner ring. Plains Hill in BFC.
City #2: Settled on Plains Ivory. Plains Forest in inner ring.
City #3: Settled on Plains Ivory. Plains Forest in inner ring. Shares Plains Hill with City #1.

Turn 00: Settler #1. City #1 founded --> Worker(7).
Turn 07: Settler(10). Move Worker to Plains Hill & Mine(4).
Turn 10: Mine completed --> results in Settler(5).
Turn 11: Move Worker & Chop(4).
Turn 14: Chop completed --> Settler(1).
Turn 15: Settler #2 completed --> Settler(5). Move Worker & Chop(4).
Turn 16: City #2 founded --> Settler(10).
Turn 18: Chop completed --> Settler(1).
Turn 19: Settler #3 completed --> Settler(7). Move Worker & Chop(4) {outside City #3}.
Turn 20: City #3 founded --> Settler(10).
Turn 22: Chop completed {City #3} & take Plains Hill Mine from City #1 --> Settler (4).
Turn 26: Settlers #4, #5 & #6 completed. Move all Settlers two tiles.
Turn 27: Cities #4, #5 & #6 founded on flatland.


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4. Standard Start ( No 3P, 3P1F, 2F2P, 3F1P tiles allowed, Pop Bronze Working from a Hut allowed)

We expect "6 cities, 1 worker in 26 turns", but no1 worked it out yet.