What is the best use of gold?

[Art Morte]

I don't get the hate the IZ receives. It's easy to get 4 or 5 cities within the factory's range. That's 12 or 15 extra production per turn.
The power plant can be forgotten as that one extra production isn't that amazing, but I do usually build a couple of IZs in places where they cover a few cities. Plus some of the Engineers are nice.

 

[Victoria]

I don't get the hate the IZ receives.

Hate is too stronger word. Put simply for me.... a pop7 city can house 3 districts but also starts amenity issues. When a city is smaller it makes no sense to make one of those districts an IZ but I concede a central city with IZ and ED is an ok answer... when larger sure as long as the spread is right.
My posts are mainly just making people query the value they place on an IZ considering their cost to produce... false economies and all that.

 

[Art Morte]

Hate is too stronger word. Put simply for me.... a pop7 city can house 3 districts but also starts amenity issues. When a city is smaller it makes no sense to make one of those districts an IZ but I concede a central city with IZ and ED is an ok answer... when larger sure as long as the spread is right.
My posts are mainly just making people query the value they place on an IZ considering their cost to produce... false economies and all that.

I don't find the production costs bad at all. You only need maybe 2 or 3 of them - on standard map - so they don't scale up too expensive. The Workshop is pretty useless for what it gives in return, but the Factory pays back for it all. Workshop 175 + Factory 390 = 565 hammers. If four cities - home city included - get the 3 production that's 12 + 2 from workshop + at least 1 from adjacency bonus = 15 hammers per turn. 565 / 15 = only 38 turns to pay itself back. Yes, I excluded the district cost, but starting at 60 it's not bad, add a few more turns to the payback time.

Also, a central city where you'd prefer to build the IZ is usually older, which usually means bigger in size, which usually means it's not a problem to make one of its districts the IZ.

 

[Victoria]

only 38 turns to pay itself back.

+ the loss of whatever else you would have spent 600+ hammers on in the meantime... and at 38 turns you have 0 profit bar some engineer points which I conceed can be useful.
The longer my game the better value they are I believe is the right light to look at them in.
I sometimes put one in my cap because +4-5 prod for internal trade routes is great. Whether I build anything in it depends on adjacency of other cities.
You have to remember sir... I and England.... I typically have coastal cities without so much adjacency.

 

[Art Morte]

+ the loss of whatever else you would have spent 600+ hammers on in the meantime... and at 38 turns you have 0 profit bar some engineer points which I conceed can be useful.
The longer my game the better value they are I believe is the right light to look at them in.
I sometimes put one in my cap because +4-5 prod for internal trade routes is great. Whether I build anything in it depends on adjacency of other cities.
You have to remember sir... I and England.... I typically have coastal cities without so much adjacency.

: )
Well, if one is contemplating constructing an IZ, it usually means there's no pressing need to spend those 600 hammers on something else instead. If I'm making, say, 100 gpt and I have to choose between Commercial and Industrial - in a city where IZ would suit - I'll go for the IZ. If I don't need more units, go for the IZ. Et cetera. In most games there comes a moment when building the IZ does not really compromise anything.

Ps. A coastal city can sometimes struggle for production* and that +3 production for them from an in-land factory is nice ; )

Pps. I often play Japan - one of my favorite civs in the game - and they get that +4 hammers from their factory already, the unique building. But then the Power Plant is not scaled up to +5 hammers. I think it probably should be as there's no sense whatsoever to build the Power Plant as Japan. Although I suppose that in itself is a small advantage, but then again I rarely build power plants anyway.

 

[UWHabs]

Well, the power plant still gives +4 per city, so if it borders 4-5 cities, it will also pay itself back in only about 35-40 turns (plus the GE points).

But it does make you think that in more cases, the values really don't make a ton of sense. Say you expect to have about 100 turns left in the game. If your city is getting 35-40 production, then it's going to take you probably 15-20 turns to build a workshop/factory or PP, and then you have to wait another 35-40 turns until it pays itself off, and you're only really getting a benefit from it for the last 30-40 turns of the game, which are probably the least valuable turns to worry about.

So, the question kind of circles back: if you already have enough money to upgrade troops as needed, would it be worth it to buy a factory or PP, or are you probably better to save the money to rush a great person? Or just save it up for the next troop upgrade, or to buy a last troop? This topic definitely has me thinking more about what makes sense to pay off. I mean, it really doesn't make sense to build an industrial zone to get better production in a city, so that you can go build an encampment in a city, so that you can, what, build one troop late in the game? Build a campus? But the other part of me hates leaving districts with buildings not build, and hates spending 50 turns waiting for a campus and library to be built...

 

[Art Morte]

Well, the power plant still gives +4 per city, so if it borders 4-5 cities, it will also pay itself back in only about 35-40 turns (plus the GE points).

But it does make you think that in more cases, the values really don't make a ton of sense. Say you expect to have about 100 turns left in the game. If your city is getting 35-40 production, then it's going to take you probably 15-20 turns to build a workshop/factory or PP, and then you have to wait another 35-40 turns until it pays itself off, and you're only really getting a benefit from it for the last 30-40 turns of the game, which are probably the least valuable turns to worry about.

So, the question kind of circles back: if you already have enough money to upgrade troops as needed, would it be worth it to buy a factory or PP, or are you probably better to save the money to rush a great person? Or just save it up for the next troop upgrade, or to buy a last troop? This topic definitely has me thinking more about what makes sense to pay off. I mean, it really doesn't make sense to build an industrial zone to get better production in a city, so that you can go build an encampment in a city, so that you can, what, build one troop late in the game? Build a campus? But the other part of me hates leaving districts with buildings not build, and hates spending 50 turns waiting for a campus and library to be built...

Yeah, I think you've got it wrong.

The Power Plant gives +4 production, which is +1 compared to the Factory. The Power Plant costs 580 hammers. So, if four cities get the benefit, that's only +1 benefit compared to the Factory. 580 / 4 = 145 turns to get the hammer investment back for the Power Plant.

Basically, if you ask me, building the Factory makes sense, but building the Power Plant does not make sense.

Also, your example of having 100 turns left in the game... I have most of the time built my IZ's way before that. The Factory comes available before 100 turns are left. Way before that.

 

[UWHabs]

Yeah, I think you've got it wrong.

The Power Plant gives +4 production, which is +1 compared to the Factory. The Power Plant costs 580 hammers. So, if four cities get the benefit, that's only +1 benefit compared to the Factory. 580 / 4 = 145 turns to get the hammer investment back for the Power Plant.

Basically, if you ask me, building the Factory makes sense, but building the Power Plant does not make sense.

Also, your example of having 100 turns left in the game... I have most of the time built my IZ's way before that. The Factory comes available before 100 turns are left. Way before that.

The power plant gives +4 on top of the +3 from the factory. So if a city has both, they get +7. Thus if your PP affects 4 cities, then it pays itself off in 580/16 = 36 turns.

The 100 turns was just an example. Yeah, I'll often be up and running much before then, but you can also count that as, say, "100 turns before you know without a shadow of a doubt that you have won the game". So while the game might last 250 turns, if the last 50 turns are just me cleaning up the map it really doesn't matter what benefit I'm getting from things.

 

[Art Morte]

The power plant gives +4 on top of the +3 from the factory. So if a city has both, they get +7. Thus if your PP affects 4 cities, then it pays itself off in 580/16 = 36 turns.

The 100 turns was just an example. Yeah, I'll often be up and running much before then, but you can also count that as, say, "100 turns before you know without a shadow of a doubt that you have won the game". So while the game might last 250 turns, if the last 50 turns are just me cleaning up the map it really doesn't matter what benefit I'm getting from things.

Oh? I always just assumed it's +4 and that's it x)
I suppose the power plant makes sense, then.

 

[agonistes]

Gold should be spent where you maximize its value.

That is going to change from game to game, and even in-game.

I try to save up for great people, but I often buy tiles. I usually get Defenders of the Faith, so I can put off upgrades for a bit. I sometimes buy an early settler or two.

Just the other day I rush bought 3 units, 1 just for the envoy, 2 to speed up the liberation of Athens so I could get on with my life (well, Peter's life).

By far my biggest gold eater is tiles. I'll buy sometimes hundreds of tiles in a game. Particularly on giant ynaemp when I'm building a border wall from Norway to Japan.

 

[Japper007]

I don't get the hate the IZ receives. It's easy to get 4 or 5 cities within the factory's range. That's 12 or 15 extra production per turn.
The power plant can be forgotten as that one extra production isn't that amazing, but I do usually build a couple of IZs in places where they cover a few cities. Plus some of the Engineers are nice.

Factories just come to late. By the time factories hit, you are either in a dominant position anyway or so far behind that they won't help you get out of a losing spiral.
Before factories IZ just don't justify a slot IMHO, a good IZ gets like 5 production from adjacency and 4 from the workshop. That takes a while to pay itself back. A campus or trade route district is instantly useful. A good Campus doubles empirewide science, a good IZ slightly raises production in one town.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Most of the Great Engineers aren't very good either. The wonder ones can be interesting (but it may be better just to buy them out), and the space ones can be good but come rather late.

 

[agonistes]

Actually I find that it is with the combo of great engineers and the mausoleum that the IZs become very worth it. You can get double amped factories, +2 culture from workshops, and a super charged power plant. Plus the citizens that can be shoved in there. The trick, for me, is to put the IZ on the least productive tile, not the one that would yield the greatest adjacency bonus (unless you are Germany). Of course, I use Feed the World too, so my cities grow fast enough and large enough that they will be using every available tile and then some. I hate to put an IZ on a tile that would yield 5 or 6 production just to get a +4 adjacency bonus. Doesn't make sense. But when you are talking a net +12 production or more, that's a significant difference. And its a self-feeding loop... you build the IZs to get the engineers and the engineers put the IZs on steroids. And the AI rarely builds the mausoleum.

But I play marathon +.

 

[stinkubus]

I got bailed out in a science victory earlier today by the engineer that gives 1500 production toward space projects. I didn't have enough campuses to get all the great scientists, but I was teching and producing fast enough to be on the last two parts when I popped him. With two charges he'd be better than Sagan and you can get him with just a few industrial zones.

 

[Victoria]

Well, if one is contemplating constructing an IZ, it usually means there's no pressing need to spend those 600 hammers on something else instead.

Of course one can cough up the money and get a factory and power plant immediately...That's converting cogs to gold back to cogs which is probably rather an efficient but long winded way of doing it.

Ps. A coastal city can sometimes struggle for production* and that +3 production for them from an in-land factory is nice ; )

.... +6-16 prod from a shipyard as well..... As vicky I do often play with a 10+ cap with harbour, encamp, IZ and CH. That +5 cogs on a new city is rather significant and you really notice the combo of districts makes for rather good production even without a hill in site, most coming form the shipyard of course.

 

[mckinney156]

A lot of talk about chopping, are you saving your trees from the beginning of the game or just playing maps where there are forest tiles everywhere? In an average city for me I get about 3 chops and early game those are usually going towards settlers or builders (with their respective bonus cards) or districts (ED, CD).

Or are you talking about planting trees later on in the game.

 

[Victoria]

Planting trees is often too late. I would never chop for a CD and only an ED for colliseum.
The thing with chopping is it is like district costs, it goes up with time... sure its valuable early but the general use of them I amke is as follows.

I plant down a campus as soon as I can but find an initial monument/worker is of more value initiall. At this time the cost of completing the campus is lower and placing it locks in that price.
After I have done everything I need to prepare I will then get a worker and consider chopping in the campus. Not only is my chop worth more but the campus is cheap so its fast to build.

There is no doubt a campus provides great value key to any but religious victory.
Yes there are theorists that talk on about how gold is more efficient than production and you should spam CH everywhere but if you look at the fast GOTM games they are never built in number... too much gold has less value, the actions with it are frivolous. The pop needed for them costs amenitiies and time.

Equally chops are valuable... for a science city (most cityies) the chops should be for the thing most important like science buildings or campus.... with only 3 trees its worth considering saving at least one if not 2 for universities.... chops grow in power with age.

for example in this game Cologne needs to borrow trees from Aachen for a chop but its probably worth leaving it for universities. Aachen has not chopped anything yet because there has been no need and no spare builder.... builders also are 66% mroe efficient after Feudalism so waiting until then is better value all round... but the game dictates a lot.

 

[antimony]

Yes there are theorists that talk on about how gold is more efficient than production and you should spam CH everywhere but if you look at the fast GOTM games they are never built in number... too much gold has less value, the actions with it are frivolous.

One notable exception being a science game below deity, where you end up having to buy three eras worth of Great Scientists.

 

[Victoria]

where you end up having to buy three eras worth of Great Scientists.

No, just wipe out slow civs.... the GP era is the average era of all players +1.... so you and gilga are in the modern and everyone else is stuck in the early eras due to you both killing them off, you will win the game faster killing the weaklings and leaving gilga. ... if you two are left in modern the the GP's will be atomic age and you will be a lot richer.

Science victories really get value from CH, you can bypass them with the neighbourhood 'exploit' or use that with CH for even moar gold but not at the expense of science or central city production.

 

[Archon_Wing]

So I actually haven't been able to build the mausoleum; checking for it in civpedia yields nothing either.