Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
Uh-oh, I seem to be contradicting myself...
You are good at this. I haven't had a good arguement in months.
What is the most advanced civilization
- Thread starter captainpirate
- Start date
Uh-oh, I seem to be contradicting myself...
You are good at this. I haven't had a good arguement in months.
Lord Haldane
Chieftain
Most signs indicate two to three thousand years, at least for Arendel and Faeryl's generation.
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
oh...
I'm probably wrong then...
(given a million or so more years I would be right!!!!)
Thanks for a throughly good time MC, Haldane, Skitters, Tyrs, and Valkrionn
I'm probably wrong then...
(given a million or so more years I would be right!!!!)
Thanks for a throughly good time MC, Haldane, Skitters, Tyrs, and Valkrionn
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
We don't know how long the average elf lives, but we know that Faeryl and Arendel were alive long before the fall of Bhall and are still physically in good health centuries into the Age of Rebirth. The Age of Ice was the shortest age at about 400 years. I put the lower limit on the average elven lifespan at about a thousand years, at least among the upper classes. Many elves may live far longer than that. It is of course possible that recent generations of elves have much shorter lifespans than their ancestors. I tend to think that even humans in the Age of Magic routinely lived to be 2 to 3 hundred years old and that elves considered this too short a lifetime to even matter, so they may well have been practically immortal back then.
I never said that the humans were more advanced in most aspects. They were probably about equal or slightly inferior before Kylorin discovered Sorcery and led his apprentices in their dark experiments. This knowledge would not have reached most of his subjects, however, so the average elf may have been better off. Also, 2 of Kylorin 21 apprentices were elves, so they shared in some of his advances.
Even if Man was more advanced in the Age of Magic, elven views of Man would not quickly change from the Age of Dragons. Back then, all men were nearly as primitive as the Doviello of the Age of Ice. There were a few attempts at agriculture and animal husbandry, but these tended to fail due to the cataclysms that marked that age. Men wandered the face of Erebus in nomadic bands running from one disaster to another, and fight each other in the names of gods and beasts they had never met and knew nothing about (many of which weren't real gods anyway). Meanwhile, the Elves had settled down and lived in the presence of Sucellus, who had chosen to adopt them like his own children and to teach them many arts. While Man had become more and more primitive and shorter lived in the years since their descent from Nemed, the elves had slowly advanced and maintained the longevity of Nemed's first children. Men were ignorant and chaotic, and they tended to betray whatever gods they worshiped to adopt other gods whenever it suited them. That might even worse than being devoted to an enemy god in their mind, because at least enemies stand for something. While elves always looked down on Man, they got along very well with the Aifons. The Aifons had become a civilized a devout race just like themselves, and were loyal to a god with whom Sucellus got along quite well. They may even have maintained their longevity, but that much is not known.
Due to the differences in longevity, very few humans ever grow to know the things that elves would learn in their childhood--which is probably as long as a human's entire life. Most elves probably look on humans as being children, ugly children, that have no hope of growing up. Elves have high aesthetic standards, so many wouldn't want to associate with the plain looking mortals. Others may fear growing emotionally close to someone that will inevitably die in what would seem like mere weeks. Many just wouldn't have the temperament to put up with the impatience and impulsiveness of humans, just like many humans have trouble keeping up with 2 year olds.
There has been considerable societal change. The schism between the two courts is pretty major. The Svartalfar ideology allowed them to adapt more than the Ljosalfar, as they were willing to lie, cheat, and steal from others in order to survive. They probably acted rather like the Doviello and survived by destroying the remnants of civilization, but without giving up acting civilized among themselves. The Ljosalfar had a much harder time and probably would have died out, had not Cernunnos himself come to live with them and lead them personally.
There were other unaligned groups too, but they were mostly small and insignificant. Most of them probably joined with one of the larger nations once they made contact again after the ice retreated. The only ones we really know about are the Once Elves, who were kidnapped in the middle of the Age of Magic (before the conflict between the two courts began) and taken prisoner in the part of the underworld ruled by Laroth. They eventually escaped to the Shadow Rift (aka Shadowed Vale), where they lived for centuries without any sunlight. Laroth probably let them escape on purpose so the tomes that would be used to create the Sidar would make it to the surface and help empower him. Their leader Arak the Erlking remained in the underworld to guard the passage, while his eldest son Haerlond Gossam became their king. When a young Auric Ulvin and his friend wandered into the rift around the time the Heartstone went missing, Haerlond used them as a scapegoat and was going to have them executed. Varn and Talia helped them escape, and when Auric broke the barrier separating the Rift from Creation and let the sun shine in Varn was rewarded by seeing Lugus and becoming his chief priest. The term Once Elf may imply that they changed too much to really be considered elves anymore. I tend to think that they are not just pale like the Svartalfar, but devoid of any pigmentation in their skin, hair, and eyes (as such, all but Varn and Talia were blinded when the sun shone through). I also tend to think they don't live as long, although 700 years or so is still quite reasonable. Once Elf culture would be dramatically different from that of the other elves factions.
The Age of Ice may very well have moved the elves towards having shorter lives and longer longevity, but not nearly enough to bring them back in line with humanity. Their lifespan now could be a tenth of what it used to be and still seem long by human standards.
I never said that the humans were more advanced in most aspects. They were probably about equal or slightly inferior before Kylorin discovered Sorcery and led his apprentices in their dark experiments. This knowledge would not have reached most of his subjects, however, so the average elf may have been better off. Also, 2 of Kylorin 21 apprentices were elves, so they shared in some of his advances.
Even if Man was more advanced in the Age of Magic, elven views of Man would not quickly change from the Age of Dragons. Back then, all men were nearly as primitive as the Doviello of the Age of Ice. There were a few attempts at agriculture and animal husbandry, but these tended to fail due to the cataclysms that marked that age. Men wandered the face of Erebus in nomadic bands running from one disaster to another, and fight each other in the names of gods and beasts they had never met and knew nothing about (many of which weren't real gods anyway). Meanwhile, the Elves had settled down and lived in the presence of Sucellus, who had chosen to adopt them like his own children and to teach them many arts. While Man had become more and more primitive and shorter lived in the years since their descent from Nemed, the elves had slowly advanced and maintained the longevity of Nemed's first children. Men were ignorant and chaotic, and they tended to betray whatever gods they worshiped to adopt other gods whenever it suited them. That might even worse than being devoted to an enemy god in their mind, because at least enemies stand for something. While elves always looked down on Man, they got along very well with the Aifons. The Aifons had become a civilized a devout race just like themselves, and were loyal to a god with whom Sucellus got along quite well. They may even have maintained their longevity, but that much is not known.
Due to the differences in longevity, very few humans ever grow to know the things that elves would learn in their childhood--which is probably as long as a human's entire life. Most elves probably look on humans as being children, ugly children, that have no hope of growing up. Elves have high aesthetic standards, so many wouldn't want to associate with the plain looking mortals. Others may fear growing emotionally close to someone that will inevitably die in what would seem like mere weeks. Many just wouldn't have the temperament to put up with the impatience and impulsiveness of humans, just like many humans have trouble keeping up with 2 year olds.
There has been considerable societal change. The schism between the two courts is pretty major. The Svartalfar ideology allowed them to adapt more than the Ljosalfar, as they were willing to lie, cheat, and steal from others in order to survive. They probably acted rather like the Doviello and survived by destroying the remnants of civilization, but without giving up acting civilized among themselves. The Ljosalfar had a much harder time and probably would have died out, had not Cernunnos himself come to live with them and lead them personally.
There were other unaligned groups too, but they were mostly small and insignificant. Most of them probably joined with one of the larger nations once they made contact again after the ice retreated. The only ones we really know about are the Once Elves, who were kidnapped in the middle of the Age of Magic (before the conflict between the two courts began) and taken prisoner in the part of the underworld ruled by Laroth. They eventually escaped to the Shadow Rift (aka Shadowed Vale), where they lived for centuries without any sunlight. Laroth probably let them escape on purpose so the tomes that would be used to create the Sidar would make it to the surface and help empower him. Their leader Arak the Erlking remained in the underworld to guard the passage, while his eldest son Haerlond Gossam became their king. When a young Auric Ulvin and his friend wandered into the rift around the time the Heartstone went missing, Haerlond used them as a scapegoat and was going to have them executed. Varn and Talia helped them escape, and when Auric broke the barrier separating the Rift from Creation and let the sun shine in Varn was rewarded by seeing Lugus and becoming his chief priest. The term Once Elf may imply that they changed too much to really be considered elves anymore. I tend to think that they are not just pale like the Svartalfar, but devoid of any pigmentation in their skin, hair, and eyes (as such, all but Varn and Talia were blinded when the sun shone through). I also tend to think they don't live as long, although 700 years or so is still quite reasonable. Once Elf culture would be dramatically different from that of the other elves factions.
The Age of Ice may very well have moved the elves towards having shorter lives and longer longevity, but not nearly enough to bring them back in line with humanity. Their lifespan now could be a tenth of what it used to be and still seem long by human standards.
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
That renders most of my points moot
The elves faced the same problems for the most part. Sucellus couldn't protect them from the damage of the Godswar
There has been one major change in their long history.
There weren't many unaligned groups before the rise of Mulcarn. (I had forgotten about the Once Elves, only mention I can of them is in the Malakim entry. Were else is their history mentioned?)
(Quick question about Yvain, is he elven or is he an ent?)
"They aren't as advanced as many human civs"
The elves faced the same problems for the most part. Sucellus couldn't protect them from the damage of the Godswar
There has been one major change in their long history.
There weren't many unaligned groups before the rise of Mulcarn. (I had forgotten about the Once Elves, only mention I can of them is in the Malakim entry. Were else is their history mentioned?)
(Quick question about Yvain, is he elven or is he an ent?)
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
We should probably get back on topic at some point.
So here's my list:
Luchuirp
Ljosofar/Svartalfar
Kuriotates/Amurites/Sheiam
Grigori/Sidar
Bannor/Khazad
Elohim/Illians/Lanun
Calabim/Belseraphs
Hippus
Mercurians/Infernals
Clan of Embers
Doviello
So here's my list:
Luchuirp
Ljosofar/Svartalfar
Kuriotates/Amurites/Sheiam
Grigori/Sidar
Bannor/Khazad
Elohim/Illians/Lanun
Calabim/Belseraphs
Hippus
Mercurians/Infernals
Clan of Embers
Doviello
To respond directly to the O.P.
I'd say that the most advanced civ would be either the Luchuirp or Amurites, depending on whether you find technology or magic more impressive. That being said, each civ is a master of their own particular field, be that summoning dead gods, knowing as much as possible about the gods or building insanely "productive" slums. Overall the Lurchip and Amurites are the winners, but they could both be beaten in certain fields. Personally, I don't think its possible to rate advancement in terms of culture, so I'm not gonna touch that one. (Though when it comes to manipulating culture, pretty sure the Balseraphs win hands down)
I'd say that the most advanced civ would be either the Luchuirp or Amurites, depending on whether you find technology or magic more impressive. That being said, each civ is a master of their own particular field, be that summoning dead gods, knowing as much as possible about the gods or building insanely "productive" slums. Overall the Lurchip and Amurites are the winners, but they could both be beaten in certain fields. Personally, I don't think its possible to rate advancement in terms of culture, so I'm not gonna touch that one. (Though when it comes to manipulating culture, pretty sure the Balseraphs win hands down)
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I didn't really mean many, just some. The elves are probably above average, but tend to be lazy so they have allen behind the most scholarly or technologically adventurous civs.
The Godswar probably lasted for thousands or even millions of years. Sucellus managed to stay out of it and to keep his lands and followers safe for the vast majority of this time. I tend to think that once Sucellus joined the war the conflict reached the point where Dagda called for the Compact within less than 1 year. After being safer and more advanced than humans for that long the even view fo their superiority wouldn't change much even if their society was pretty much destroyed at the end of that age.
The end of the Godswar and signing of the Compact was a major change too. It meant they lost their constant contact wiht their god and had to set up their own government (the one with 2 queens alternating reigns) instead of following his orders directly. It meant that the forest itself no longer interviened to save the lives of careless elves. Before that, death was almost entirely unknown to the elves.
I think there were some unalgned groups, but these would mostly just be remote vilages where few people knew or cared about what happened in their central government.
I think the only place the pedia mentions them by name is in Rathaus's pedia entry, when he has to avoid them in order to make it thorugh the passage to the underworld to try to serve Arawn (but since the portal leads to an area controlled by Laroth, actually to get the Netherblade to serve him). There is also a brief reference in the FfH History section, but most of what we know come from the forum. I think I've already said most of it.
He was originally an Elven Druid, but Kael decided to change him to a Treant because he wanted to use the art that the art team had already made for the Warhammer mod (most members of the art team for that mod and FfH are the same)
I never liked that change. I'm thinking that when I eventually release my modmod I'll change Yvain to a Satyr druid, making the "favorite son of Cernunnos" literal instead of just figurative. (Also in my version, Satyr is its own racial promotion that gives a slightly better forest bonus than elven and allows Mezmerize Animal with Subdue Animal and a similar Mezmerize Beast spell with Subdue Beast. Yvain would have subdue animal, and subdue beast would be made availible to disciples as well as recon units. Satyrs would uprae to Beastmasters, and beastmaters would once again start wiht subdue animal and subdue beast, but have a level prereq.)
Why do I keep responding to you? I have 4 papers to write tonight! I should really get back to focusing on that.
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
I admit defeat.
Thanks for a good argument.
You're right about Yvain, he should be either a satyr or elven, from the civ and wiki entries I got the impression that he was an elve.
The Distractor!!!
Thanks for a good argument.
You're right about Yvain, he should be either a satyr or elven, from the civ and wiki entries I got the impression that he was an elve.
The Distractor!!!
citizenalex
Chieftain
I think the most advanced would be the civs ruled by those leaders who lived the longest, simply because long life = better chances for a quest for knowledge.
Sheim and Calabim are good example; if you've been around since the beginning of human creation, chances are you've seen it all, no matter what.
On the flipside, a smart ruler doesn't mean a smart nation, the above being all evil f***s, it's probably in their best intentions to keep the peasants as dumb as can be. For a more all-around effect, I think the Amurites and Sidar are on the top of that list..
Sheim and Calabim are good example; if you've been around since the beginning of human creation, chances are you've seen it all, no matter what.
On the flipside, a smart ruler doesn't mean a smart nation, the above being all evil f***s, it's probably in their best intentions to keep the peasants as dumb as can be. For a more all-around effect, I think the Amurites and Sidar are on the top of that list..
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
They are advanced magic wise, not culture or tech.
The Kuriotates has an immortal dragon indirectly ruling them and arguably have the best system of goverment.
The Luichuirp and the Khazad have very long lived leaders, along with golems.
The Ljosolfar and Svartalfar have very old leaders and an advanced culture.
The Balseraphs have the strongest culture (gamewise) and Perpentach, who originated in the early Age of Magic.
The Elohim civilization has controled many of the most significant and powerful places on Erebus in their history.
The Illians were in control of the world for 400 years and suffered very little loss of tech from Mulcarn's ascendance and have Auric on their side.
The Bannor were the most powerful nation after Patria's fall until Bhall's fall and have a long and glorious history.
The Kuriotates has an immortal dragon indirectly ruling them and arguably have the best system of goverment.
The Luichuirp and the Khazad have very long lived leaders, along with golems.
The Ljosolfar and Svartalfar have very old leaders and an advanced culture.
The Balseraphs have the strongest culture (gamewise) and Perpentach, who originated in the early Age of Magic.
The Elohim civilization has controled many of the most significant and powerful places on Erebus in their history.
The Illians were in control of the world for 400 years and suffered very little loss of tech from Mulcarn's ascendance and have Auric on their side.
The Bannor were the most powerful nation after Patria's fall until Bhall's fall and have a long and glorious history.
Seon
Not An Evil Liar
The Kuriotates does not have the best form of government, they just have a extremely good leader. Without Cardith, their civilization surely will fall apart, and that does not count as a good governmental system.
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
I said arguably.
They have an extremely stable goverment with an almost immortal leader, there is very little repression.
The leader is fair.
The society is very accepting of other ways of thinking.
The people have far more of a say than in the Calabim or the Illians for example.
They have an extremely stable goverment with an almost immortal leader, there is very little repression.
The leader is fair.
The society is very accepting of other ways of thinking.
The people have far more of a say than in the Calabim or the Illians for example.
Being around for a long time in the cases of Os'Gabella and her two brags doesn't mean them leading an advanced civilization, if you ask me.
The Sheaim appear to me more like a bunch of outcasts, murderers and worse who managed to escape justice. Some rogue mages and such for the punch, but overall a society where the powerful and educated clearly don't care about sharing their knowledge.
For the Calabim an advanced society would just mean trouble. Them not having access to Elder Councils is a good example. I imagine the whole lot of the people being just cattle for the - very few - vampires.
I see these ones actually as some of the least advanced civilizations.
The Sheaim appear to me more like a bunch of outcasts, murderers and worse who managed to escape justice. Some rogue mages and such for the punch, but overall a society where the powerful and educated clearly don't care about sharing their knowledge.
For the Calabim an advanced society would just mean trouble. Them not having access to Elder Councils is a good example. I imagine the whole lot of the people being just cattle for the - very few - vampires.
I see these ones actually as some of the least advanced civilizations.
Lance of Llanwy
King
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2006
- Messages
- 710
I imagine the Calabim as being somewhat analogous to Tsarist Russia: brutal, backward, and belligerent. The vast majority of the populace are serfs, all of the land is owned by the vampire aristocracy, the vampires form the core of the army and are shielded by thousands of conscripts conscripted more for use as fodder than as warriors. Except they might also literally be "eaten" by their masters.
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