What is the most versatile civilization?

[Ondolindë]

How can we not be biased? Only with empirical evidence. How do you get that on something like versatility?
My comment that I am biased was a jab at the thread but I will defend my namesake.
The ability to either settle or conquer on the large majority of the map and get a free copy of the latest melee unit is crazy strong, especially as that unit can move the same turn. Yes it’s not on her starting continent and that’s the secret. If she start on an edge then she can just swamp people, all she has to do is discover ironworking or niter, nothing more. If she is not near the edge, just push one way and before you know it you are off continent.
With early golden age science for harbour adjacency this can be rather strong combined with Pax Brittanica.
Push to redcoats and it’s just a joke, sod the sea, sod CH, settle early by the sea with really cheap harbours and use campus as second building which will always get +1 adjacency and you are rocking.
The ability to get just 2 museums automatically themed with 6 slots can make her a culture monster, an English museum is worth roughly 2.5 other museums, twice the space but fast and guaranteed theming.
Sea dogs are England useless thing, every civ must have a useless thing to be proud of, however the chop bonus to get one is good and gives nicevera score, as you should really build 3 for a eureka, a sea dog armada is the prefect weapon to capture battleships, so it’s at least an interesting UU but also makes her great on island maps.
Victoria is good on all maps, most of her strength is nothing to do with the sea bar harbours. On a Pangea the chances are you will be fairly close to a continent edge.
Often I will see cities middle game with say 20 production on average... well the RNDY with a shipyard averages +10 production just for that tile.
Loyalty is a lot stronger off continent than on and the RNDY +4 along with all those off continent card bonuses allow her to settle in a -20 loyalty spot and survive with a single city.. as long as she has cash, and goodness, can Vicky get cash.
Her main drawback as I have always said is her starting bias is bad compared to someone like Greece or Tomyris.
Culture, science and Dom she is strong at, no versatility with religion despite Henry making his own (good alt leader?)
Start on an island? Vicky is good there too.
I rest my case, Vicky is not a one shot wonder like Alex, but versatile. The thing is she takes skill to play well, not one for simpletons. You need to understand your starting position to understand your strategy, some games I will not bother with anything but Pax, other games I will race to a great peaceful victory Without using Anything but RNDY and museums., you have to adapt to win well.
The trouble is the violent people are one track minded and rather vocal.

Ok, now you’re less biased. You defended your choice well. Actually, you made me want to play Victoria more.

 

[Victoria]

Ok, now you’re less biased. You defended your choice well. Actually, you made me want to play Victoria more.

As I said, she has bad starts, get a good start and think am I on the coast with good sea resources first, river is not so important. What is very important is finding another continent to attack or to build an RNDY on. An RNDY off continent even with 0 sea resources with Reyna and the quite early adjacency card can be scary good with a golden age.
Vicky is great for violence or for peaceful she can get very wealthy.
You just have to play past 50 turns.

 

[Kwami]

Needing a good start with coast and sea resources and a nearby second continent to be great makes Victoria less versatile, though. No?

 

[Victoria]

Needing a good start with coast and sea resources and a nearby second continent to be great makes Victoria less versatile, though. No?

Read again, some games I play completely differently based on situation. The odds of being in the middle of a continent are not that high but if you are and if you have no good sea resources a harbour triangle with no resources or river will net you +15 science +15 gold in a golden age in the worst case scenario. So setting up 2 cities early in this way is an option. But the second on without Reyna is only +11/11. The main issue is the CH is not really worth it so just messing with options at the moment.
You can end up starting inland, you just have to play like another weak starter, and push, but push one way, toward another continent.
If you are willing to wait for getting 2 theatres they can be a strong alernative to campuses, there is currently a late game chopping trick that requires strong early culture that provides tonnes of science.

 

[isau]

Also, France, in my opinion, is at the bottom level of versatility. Other than culture, what can they do?
China can grab early wonders and output tourism as well as science, while Kongo consumes all the great works, and Germany swipes the floor with later wonders.
France cannot do any better even when it can only focus on a single route.

Why does France exist...?

France gets +1 to diplomatic visibility for free. In Rise and Fall you get a combat bonus of +3 combat strength per level of visibility over your opponent, so in practice France has +3 combat in all situations. It's not game breaking, but it's good. If you want to warmonger, you can use the Listening Post spy mission against your opponent. It has a 0% chance of failing and adds an additional visibility level for a total of plus +6 versus your opponent. I consider +6 combat significant. It is true other civs can also use Listening Post against you, but Catherine can do it earlier, and later on can do it without sacrificing other missions.

Spies are useful toward any victory type, since this is game is a race. You can use them to knock out space race enemies. You can steal great works. You can steal gold. You can flip cities. Spies are probably one of the most versatile systems there is, whether you want to place peaceful or war monger.

The synergies with the Cultural victory are already obvious. Religious victory may be the least obvious synergy, but there are a bunch of wonders useful toward that victory that France can grab. And I wouldn't say France is "less versatile" at Religious victory than other civs listed here like Australia or Rome.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I agree with almost all you said, except I don't think it's that easy
to get a religious victory with Australia. If they start next to Uluru, they
have a much better chance.

They at least get good adjacency bonuses for Holy Sites, but I agree that's about it. That's the only reason I chose them over the Netherlands. Brazil would be good but it doesn't get any special bonuses towards production except Great Engineer points through the Carnival, where as Australia can have more production power.

 

[Pietato]

Japan, they always have good adjacency for every District type without relying on any particular terrain (like Dutch or Germany with rivers, Russia on Tundra or everyone else on mountains and hills). They also get discounts to districts that help with every victory apart from maybe Science (though the discounted ones go a long way towards helping that as well)

Japan sucks. Useless UU, and really late unique building. The district bonus is also mediocre.

 

[isau]

I know I've been beating the France drum for a while, but I just realized that I think religious combat units also benefit from Diplomatic Visibility. (I'm not 100% sure and its hard to set up a test quickly--someone correct me if I am wrong). But the reason it would be relevant is it would mean France is also good at that victory condition too. I honestly think that in R&F they deserve a place next to Rome, albeit, they are probably more difficult to play well, since you need to know how to use those spy missions toward your chosen victory type:

The Listening Post spy mission should be a staple of war mongers everywhere, however. It used to suck. No more.

 

[dexters]

I like Rome a lot.

 

[halfhalfharp]

France gets +1 to diplomatic visibility for free. In Rise and Fall you get a combat bonus of +3 combat strength per level of visibility over your opponent, so in practice France has +3 combat in all situations. It's not game breaking, but it's good. If you want to warmonger, you can use the Listening Post spy mission against your opponent. It has a 0% chance of failing and adds an additional visibility level for a total of plus +6 versus your opponent. I consider +6 combat significant. It is true other civs can also use Listening Post against you, but Catherine can do it earlier, and later on can do it without sacrificing other missions.

Spies are useful toward any victory type, since this is game is a race. You can use them to knock out space race enemies. You can steal great works. You can steal gold. You can flip cities. Spies are probably one of the most versatile systems there is, whether you want to place peaceful or war monger.

The synergies with the Cultural victory are already obvious. Religious victory may be the least obvious synergy, but there are a bunch of wonders useful toward that victory that France can grab. And I wouldn't say France is "less versatile" at Religious victory than other civs listed here like Australia or Rome.

This is a more supportive argument.
Stealing science boost and disrupting rocketry can add a bit help in catching up researches, but that won't boost France to change the course in fitting science victory routes.
This is especially true when other civs are significantly more advanced in technology in higher difficulties.

Flipping cites is also great in R&F, but France doesn't have a solid way to hold it, especially when they are not on the same continent/Grande Imperiale is not in handy.

The spy system is really versatile, but its not the patent of France. Other civs can use conuterspy to ruin CdM's day.
Also considering how France lacks strength in other routes and the long duration that they need to be successful, spies are not turning the tides. The combat strength benefit is a bit more solid but hardly makes France very flexible/strong other than cultural victory.

The ability to grab wonders doesn't contribute much to versatility, for most of them offers less direct benefits to any victory route but a cultural one. (I believe the Oxford Uni can't boost France into a huge sci civ anyway)

 

[isau]

This is a more supportive argument.
Stealing science boost and disrupting rocketry can add a bit help in catching up researches, but that won't boost France to change the course in fitting science victory routes.
This is especially true when other civs are significantly more advanced in technology in higher difficulties.

Flipping cites is also great in R&F, but France doesn't have a solid way to hold it, especially when they are not on the same continent/Grande Imperiale is not in handy.

The spy system is really versatile, but its not the patent of France. Other civs can use conuterspy to ruin CdM's day.
Also considering how France lacks strength in other routes and the long duration that they need to be successful, spies are not turning the tides. The combat strength benefit is a bit more solid but hardly makes France very flexible/strong other than cultural victory.

The ability to grab wonders doesn't contribute much to versatility, for most of them offers less direct benefits to any victory route but a cultural one. (I believe the Oxford Uni can't boost France into a huge sci civ anyway)

The only victory I might agree with that on is the science one. But Rome doesn't have anything that to me screams "Science Victory"either. It's just a good overall civ with nice bonuses, like France is.

Counterspies really shouldn't ruin your day in single player. In multiplayer perhaps they would to an extent. But counterspies can't stop the Listening Post mission, it has a 100% chance of success. Plus for the other missions Cathy's spies get a free level, which can make her spies incredibly annoying/effective depending on the promotions you get. The one that lets you restation a spy instantly for example is killer.

Prior to R&F I did consider France pretty weak but diplomatic visibility affecting changed combat that. +6 combat from stacked free diplo + Listening Post is like a free Tier 2 promotion for every unit, and the only way people can stop you is by using one of their spies to Listen Post back at you, leaving them wide open to attacks from your second spy. There aren't many civs with a direct combat boost, and almost none with any kind of bonuses to spying, so she's kind of out there on her own in that regard.

 

[halfhalfharp]

The only victory I might agree with that on is the science one. But Rome doesn't have anything that to me screams "Science Victory"either. It's just a good overall civ with nice bonuses, like France is.

Counterspies really shouldn't ruin your day in single player. In multiplayer perhaps they would to an extent. But counterspies can't stop the Listening Post mission, it has a 100% chance of success. Plus for the other missions Cathy's spies get a free level, which can make her spies incredibly annoying/effective depending on the promotions you get. The one that lets you restation a spy instantly for example is killer.

Prior to R&F I did consider France pretty weak but diplomatic visibility affecting changed combat that. +6 combat from stacked free diplo + Listening Post is like a free Tier 2 promotion for every unit, and the only way people can stop you is by using one of their spies to Listen Post back at you, leaving them wide open to attacks from your second spy. There aren't many civs with a direct combat boost, and almost none with any kind of bonuses to spying, so she's kind of out there on her own in that regard.

Yep, that gives a hand in combat, although that doesn't make her excellent in conquest, nor making her too versatile.
I should agree that R&F rises her versatility a bit then.

Other civs don't necessarily need a true combat bonus. Normally they only need a powerful UU to cover the conquest. But CdM cannot drive the military turbine out of her continent as her UU has a limited use only.
+6 combat strength is a decent bonus, but I am afraid it is unable to give her a conquest victory.

Rome doesn't have the direct bonus to science too, but with the ability to gain and support a wide and tall empire, Rome can generally have higher science output.
There comes the potential to go every victory route.

 

[Japper007]

Japan sucks. Useless UU, and really late unique building. The district bonus is also mediocre.

Sure but district bonus is really only a strong (no it isn't mediocre, Oledavy at Realms Beyond was able to get a huge megalopolis of Districts in between 4 cities in PBEM4, the yields were ridiculous once it completed) bonus on top of the three 33 cheaper Districts. Cheap Encampments are almost OP in Multiplayer, all but guaranteeing them that critical first Great General in any game without Greece. Cheap Holy Sites and Theaters are also very strong in both multi- and Singleplayer.

Besides thread asked for most versatile civ, not strongest.

 

[Morningcalm]

Cree are versatile due to nice early food and production, with bonuses to gold and early buffed scouts as well. "Most versatile" is tough but I'm beginning to find the Dutch and Japanese quite versatile since their bonuses affect multiple district types.

 

[Disgustipated]

Zulu, when you can conquer everything, you have as much flexibility as anyone.

I certainly felt like I had more flexibility in my Zulu game than my Korea game.

 

[rattatatouille]

Speaking of France, doesn't diplo visibility affect religious combat as well?

 

[Trengilly]

Zulu, when you can conquer everything, you have as much flexibility as anyone.

Only if you have something to conquer!

My first R&F game - on a continents map - I played the Zulu and got placed inland on a large continent surrounded by ocean all by myself (with the exception of one city state). I think the game was just trying to spite me for some reason.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

My first R&F game - on a continents map - I played the Zulu and got placed inland on a large continent surrounded by ocean all by myself (with the exception of one city state). I think the game was just trying to spite me for some reason.

Build a hoard of warriors or something and then you can reach the other civs mass upgrade into a very strong military. Building early cheap military units can actually be seen as an economical investment even if you are not going to use them simply because how cheap upgrades are.

Warriors and slingers are nice because they don't have any upkeep.

With Maybe the exception of Kongo, I don't find the difference between the civilizations to be that big, pretty much everyone can do Everything even if everyone is better at doing specific things.

 

[Victoria]

I played a game tonight, started in the coast but got an early task to remove Japan from a CS so in I went (had god of the forge) and who was there but Indonesia. Crammed full of cities, right next to Japan.
Took out japan but had flashing fists due to early many huge cities. I then went into a dark age.
To cut a long story short I keot retzaking the same 4 cities one after the other about 5 times and each time Vicky gets a swordsman. Finally wasted them about T100 and had 33 swordsmen. I may add I never upgraded or bougfht a swordsman. Looking forward to ploughing into Shaka with them tomorrow. Xbow muskets soon
It will be a Medieval golden age and I have 5 RNDY
Vicky is sooo much more fun under R&F

 

[steveg700]

Anyone said Brazil yet?

I'm playing them for the first time, and they seem to be able to do everything pretty well. GP's cover all victory conditions, and the Amazon bonus applies to holy sites, theater districts, commercial hubs, and campuses.