What is the problem with Brazil (Pedro II) and how to fix it?

[Bizrock]

I played Brazil three times and in the paper, his bonuses seem really good and useful. Rainforest tiles provide a +1 adjacency bonus for Campuses, Commercial Hubs, Holy Sites, and Theater Squares is really great, you can make theater squares with 6 culture, which is very hard.
Recruiting or patronizing a Great Person refund 20% of their point cost. Not so good at the start, but later on this is very impactful. Street Carnival a very cheap district that helps with amenities Minas Geraes, one of the best UU of the game, come one era early, need culture to research, very powerful and impactful unit and does not require strategic resources.
When I first saw this I think to myself that this is actually a very good civ and didn't understand why everyone complains about it, but then I played it and understood.
Now I will list the problem and issues that I found through the games.

• The Rainforest problem:
  - You need rainforest, so you can't chop it and won't get the same bonus as other civs that doen't care about it and get tons of production with Magnus and then you will fall behind and problably will lose a wonder race. (You will need luck to get Chiken Itza)
  - Can't chop rainforest early on, to chop rainforest it need bronze working, which is far from the start and need a not reliable eureka, which is kill 3 barbarians, some times you can do it and othertime you won't be able to complete it. You can't move distritcs, so you need to put in the best spot possible and in Brazil case, is in the middle of the jungle to provide maximum adjacent bonus, but you can't do it early on because you will need to chop rainforest and you won't be do it early on.
  - Rainforest is not good in the late game. You can't chop rainforest so you carry it to the end game.
• The Great Person Problem:
  - To achieve the refund Great Person you need to compete and take it first. Seems very good in low dificult, but in higher dificult you won't be able to grab Great Persons first, and if there is a Civ that have a higher boost to Great person your bonus will be forgotten. (Civs that build Districs faster, good luck to compete against Peter)
  - Great Person efficiency. Even if you focus on get Great Person you won't get much of them because half of them are not that impactful.
  
• Street Carnival Problem:
  - Brazil is not an agressive nation, so he won't be going for wars early on and won't have many problems with amenities. Don't take me wrong, extra amenities is nice, but not so good if you don't need them.
  - Amenities as not something that you can focus and get great results of it like Culture, Science, Faith, Production or even Food. If you have all cities in ecstasy with 10 amenities, if you have 20 amenities it won't have any effect at all, not like Civ5 that you could get golden age faster with more happiness.
  - Street Carnival don't have adjacency bonus, so don't have synergy with rainforest.
  - It consumes a district slot, that's very bad.
  - Carnival Project give you Great Person, great. But you can get Great Person building another district and doesn't need production to do it. And as I said, Great Person is not that reliable.
  
• Minas Geraes NOT problem.
  - I mean, I don't have anything to talk about it, it comes 1 era early, synergies with possible Brazil cultural rush to get it. Great power, cheap, don't need strategic resources. If you get even in score with others nations and get it, you problably can win the game (IF YOU ARE IN THE WATER)

How to Solve it:
I will be fast with it, I think we can have fast solutions.

• Can chop rainforest early or can construct districts in rainforest without Bronze working (Chop without Worker).
• Small bonus to rainforest late game
• I don't have any idea for Great Person.
• Some bonus for accumulation of amenities.
• Maybe nerf Minas Geraes

So what is your opnion about it and how would be a solution to fix it?​

 

[Art Morte]

Can I just say I really enjoyed the visuals in the op.

Also, I think Brasil are quite all right. Not a go-to civ by any means, but the rainforest thing plus the Minas definitely give you a rather interesting angle if you wish to go for it.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

I sure enjoy it when they are my early neighbor

 

[iammaxhailme]

This is what this thread looks like to me:

https://i.imgur.com/puWcSkt.png

I wonder why the icons look so huge? (This also happens when I see them elsewhere, but a thread like this made me actually post about it!)

 

[Morningcalm]

This is what this thread looks like to me:

https://i.imgur.com/puWcSkt.png

I wonder why the icons look so huge? (This also happens when I see them elsewhere, but a thread like this made me actually post about it!)

Have the same problem--wish the icons were a lot smaller.

Re: the OP, many problems would be solved if players could also grow rainforest--but realistically that a lot harder than just growing regular forest. Brazil does have the unique problem of deciding whether to cut or keep jungle--too much can be a problem, and too little means basically no Civ bonus.

 

[Bizrock]

Can I just say I really enjoyed the visuals in the op.

Also, I think Brasil are quite all right. Not a go-to civ by any means, but the rainforest thing plus the Minas definitely give you a rather interesting angle if you wish to go for it.

I sure enjoy it when they are my early neighbor

Very enjoyable I think too, but very weak though, can't be effective like other Civs and some Civs do the same thing, but better. Really the only thing that get me to play Brazil again is Minas Geraes.

Have the same problem--wish the icons were a lot smaller.

Re: the OP, many problems would be solved if players could also grow rainforest--but realistically that a lot harder than just growing regular forest. Brazil does have the unique problem of deciding whether to cut or keep jungle--too much can be a problem, and too little means basically no Civ bonus.

This would help a lot, you could plan your cities better, but I think this will be too much overpowered.

 

[conorbebe]

The oversized icons make this way too much effort to read.

 

[Bizrock]

OK, I removed them

 

[isau]

A strange thing about Brazil is they have a bonus that is undocumented. They get +2 Appeal from Rainforests. Rainforest naturally has -1 Appeal, so the actual result I believe is +1 in the end. This bonus only specifically applies to Rainforests that you own. I don't know why it's not mentioned.

Anyway I think with Brazil, in the long term, you do want to end up chopping your Rainforests. You just wait a bit longer than some other players.


The Minaes Geraes is probably the single strongest Unique Unit in the game IMO, based on its location in the tech tree. Luckily the AI is not smart enough to really use them because Brazil is hilarious at that stage. One shotting other ships, blowing city walls into orbit, etc.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The Street Carnival has more uses than just Amenities. You can use the Bread and Circuses project to flip neighboring cities. Or you can do the Carnival project to enhance Great Person point generation.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Yea, the thing with Brazil is there is no synergy in what they have. The GP refund sounds like a good idea but remember that GPs escalate in cost and you have no control over which one comes next so this only becomes good late game by chain buying GPs but that's harder nowadays. Appeal also doesn't mean much for them til very later on and you're stuck with these medicore tiles. Their unique district is not terrible but it's not that exciting either since it takes up a lot and if you really want to run the project for those great person points, why not just build a proper theater square?

Their battleship is really good at least.

 

[Dragabond]

I dunno. I played Brazil one time, around when the game first came out and before it was patched. Districts still stacked, units could be sold for money, etc, all of which added up to me having something stupid like +30 or more excess amenities in each city.

The only other thing that I remember from playing that game (other than the downright euphoria my people faced at all times) was that I didn't give a fig about rainforest adjacency because ultimately it meant nothing and it meant everything to have those tiles cleared.

While the stacking is no longer true, I'd imagine that the adjacency bit still is. I've never seen much benefit to maximizing adjacency in every district, even with the nerf to the policies that add 50 - 100% value to your buildings. (As a matter of fact, post nerf, I haven't made a habit of slotting those policies as I previously did, and I haven't noticed a bit of a difference).

So my biggest problem with Pedro is his AI agendas, because he just comes off as whiny, much like Qin. Sorry that you aren't doing well, Pedro, but if Brazil really was a better place, maybe more great people would come to use the giant door knocker on your chest instead of coming to me.


...basically Brazil is fine as-is, even if districts don't stack. Doesn't require a buff or a nerf. S'my opinion, anyway.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Brazil is a well-balanced Civ, the only problem is that because it is well-balanced, it is not OP and you have to meet a lot of constraints when using its special abilities.

All these problems seem to be the constraint for a well-balanced civ. If a Civ have a lot of bonus in any conditions without any constraint, it is not a good designation, only to make it overpowered.

Brazil is one of the few "balanced-designed" Civs in Civ6. It is neither too strong nor too weak.

 

[Tech Osen]

The ship is devestating, also because the production card is much easier to reach than the one you normally need for battleships.
But the jungle thing is just meh, it could really use the brasilwood camp UI from Civ 5.

 

[Bizrock]

I dunno. I played Brazil one time, around when the game first came out and before it was patched. Districts still stacked, units could be sold for money, etc, all of which added up to me having something stupid like +30 or more excess amenities in each city.

The only other thing that I remember from playing that game (other than the downright euphoria my people faced at all times) was that I didn't give a fig about rainforest adjacency because ultimately it meant nothing and it meant everything to have those tiles cleared.

While the stacking is no longer true, I'd imagine that the adjacency bit still is. I've never seen much benefit to maximizing adjacency in every district, even with the nerf to the policies that add 50 - 100% value to your buildings. (As a matter of fact, post nerf, I haven't made a habit of slotting those policies as I previously did, and I haven't noticed a bit of a difference).

So my biggest problem with Pedro is his AI agendas, because he just comes off as whiny, much like Qin. Sorry that you aren't doing well, Pedro, but if Brazil really was a better place, maybe more great people would come to use the giant door knocker on your chest instead of coming to me.


...basically Brazil is fine as-is, even if districts don't stack. Doesn't require a buff or a nerf. S'my opinion, anyway.

I didnt understand, so you said that you played Brazil ignoring all of his abilities, because you know they are not efficient or worthy. And then Said Brazil dont need changes?

I dunno. I played Brazil one time, around when the game first came out and before it was patched. Districts still stacked, units could be sold for money, etc, all of which added up to me having something stupid like +30 or more excess amenities in each city.

The only other thing that I remember from playing that game (other than the downright euphoria my people faced at all times) was that I didn't give a fig about rainforest adjacency because ultimately it meant nothing and it meant everything to have those tiles cleared.

While the stacking is no longer true, I'd imagine that the adjacency bit still is. I've never seen much benefit to maximizing adjacency in every district, even with the nerf to the policies that add 50 - 100% value to your buildings. (As a matter of fact, post nerf, I haven't made a habit of slotting those policies as I previously did, and I haven't noticed a bit of a difference).

So my biggest problem with Pedro is his AI agendas, because he just comes off as whiny, much like Qin. Sorry that you aren't doing well, Pedro, but if Brazil really was a better place, maybe more great people would come to use the giant door knocker on your chest instead of coming to me.


...basically Brazil is fine as-is, even if districts don't stack. Doesn't require a buff or a nerf. S'my opinion, anyway.

Brazil is a well-balanced Civ, the only problem is that because it is well-balanced, it is not OP and you have to meet a lot of constraints when using its special abilities.

All these problems seem to be the constraint for a well-balanced civ. If a Civ have a lot of bonus in any conditions without any constraint, it is not a good designation, only to make it overpowered.

Brazil is one of the few "balanced-designed" Civs in Civ6. It is neither too strong nor too weak.

A well balanced Civ is a nation that have good bonuses with synergies all togueter and are useful, with downsides.
As I Said, Brazil have really bad synergies. Rainforest bonus and great person discount is something ignorable and not worth the investiment at all, How this could be balanced?

 

[UWHabs]

An awesome extra bonus you could give them would be the ability to build a district on a rainforest tile without destroying it. Then you could basically district up your rainforest with awesome adjacencies, without worrying about keeping a ring of rainforests around your districts.

Otherwise, I'd agree with the above - they have some bonuses, but to use them optimally, you end up with a lot of "wasted" tiles, so hard to really maximize things. Having Zoos grant +1 science per rainforest definitely helps them, although even with that, rainforests still only become 2/1/1 by default, so still much worse than a well developed farm or mine.

 

[RealHuhn]

The street carnival project is actually quite insane. After you have your empire well established, you can run it in every city and get tons of great people. In early game, Brazil gets a nice boost to all yields. Jungle hills are pretty good tiles to work early, especially with a bonus resource like bananas. The fact that these bonus resources often appear in clusters let's you nearly keep all your adjacency bonuses anyway, even if you chop the rest.

It's a fun civ to play because it's actually important to play them a little bit differently.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

The main problem with Brazil seems to be the rainforests and the start bias. Being surrounded by jungle in the early game can really stunt your growth/production and make it hard to catch up.
The are some possible solutions that could fix that.

• Enable Brazil to build districts in rainforests before Bronze Working
• Enable Brazil to chop rainforests either at the start or with Mining.
• Compensate for the potential loss of rainforest adjacency and Builder charges by improving yields from rainforest chopping. Maybe grant additional gold equal to food/production per chop. Would also fit thematically with Brazil's history of lumber exports.
  
• Give Brazil one food and/or production in the city for every two rainforest tiles adjacent to the city center. This would nicely offset the early production and growth problem. Maybe include adjacent forest tiles in the calculation to make them less reliant on rainforests.

The Street Carnival has more uses than just Amenities. You can use the Bread and Circuses project to flip neighboring cities. Or you can do the Carnival project to enhance Great Person point generation.

Ah, I haven't played Brazil with R&F and was wondering if Street Carneval and Bread and Circuses are two different projects or one with both effects. A combines project could potentially be absurdly strong, so this is probably for the better.

I sure enjoy it when they are my early neighbor

Yeah, Pedro has one of the worst agendas in the game. He, Pericles, Qin and Saladin are the diplomacy problem childre who will always denounce because your using game mechanics and need to be fixed in some way. Pedro should have some additional positive modifier. Every time you pass on a Great Person should make him happy.

 

[Architect]

I have the same problem the icons are completely borked. I basically could not read the post because of it.

 

[Bizrock]

I have the same problem the icons are completely borked. I basically could not read the post because of it.

I removed It a long time ago