What is the purpose of the later religions (christianity, taoism, confucianism, islam)?

[sirdanilot]

So I generally play on pretty standard settings on prince. And every game, either everyone converts to hinduism, buddhism or judaism (sometimes).

On maps with isolated continents , sometimes maybe christianity or taoism, but that's it.

So what is the purpose even of the later religions? They generally play no role in the game. I often get islam or confucianism because I research the techs first but I don't ever do anything with them, as it's suicide to convert to a heathen religion right.

Has anyone ever won a religious victory under Islam, for example? Seems pretty impossible to do.

 

[lymond]

Confucianism can be had quite early enough to be quite useful for whatever purpose, plus the tech is great...and it will often spread quite well. Same for Christianity. Tao and Islam are usually afterthoughts in most games unless AIs are iso/semi-iso. Also, if you are in an iso/semi-iso game where the one AI never founds a religion, it can be good have one on your land mass. And Paci can be had fairly early too with a bulb in the BCs.

Divine Right is a bad tech for the human to tech. I don't even trade for it.

Most focused religious victory games are won quite early - often way before Islam is founded. And even if you go late RDV, AP is usually built before it too. At least on higher levels. It could be used as a fallback if going late RDV on lower levels. Most RDVs the best ploy is to go with a religion that is rare in the world, and spread just enough to get the votes right anyway.

Some folks may want there own religion to have a holy city of there own. Fine is casual games, but I'd rather capture holy cities and shrines.

Lastly, Religions are important for culture victories. More you have the more cathedral type buildings you can build.

oh.and yes, just cause you found a religion doesn't mean you have to adopt. You can still spread it though. Early monasteries can be nice. Or temples if Spiritual.

 

[rah]

Frequently I'll see an AI convert to Christianity. (right before they get dog-piled by the other AI's)

 

[Kallikrates]

One needs preferably three religions for culture victory. In (semi)isolation one cannot count on getting *any* from the AI. It can also happen that there is a religious nut or two on a different continent and they grab 4 early religions before oneself or the neighboring AI have gotten any religion. And religion is helpful for border pops and happiness. It is usually a disadvantage not to have any religion in ones empire (that does not mean one should always/usually found them! but sometimes one has to).

As the three first religions almost always go to the AI (because the human player has different preferences) one wants one of the later religions in such situations.

Regardless of religion's general use, CoL/Conf/Caste and Phil/Tao/Paci are very powerful techs one wants fairly early in many games, so one might as well found the religion. I frequently found one or both of them on Immortal, simply because I want Pacifism for more great people and the AI does not give priority to these techs whereas they love the three early religions and Xtianity.

 

[Mudokon Pop]

I play on larger maps and I do find that Confucianism & Christianity do spread better - sometimes eclipsing earlier faiths. Especially if the Oracle was used to pop it. Islam rarely becomes significant but it does gain some converts on Huge maps on Marathon (Prince difficulty).

Sometimes if I get one of those religions I use the first Missionary and send it to another Civs capital instead of mine. If they have a lot of trade routes it can spread relatively well.

 

[Pangaea]

People have been asking this for 2000 years. No clue yet.

In the game, though, to get a bit of a mix-up, you can play with "Choose Religions". That way the AI (or you) get to choose what religion to found when researching a religion-unleashing technology.

 

[6K Man]

People have been asking this for 2000 years. No clue yet.

Beat me to it.

In the unmodded, standard settings version of BtS, not much. In some mods, and on larger maps where whole continents aren’t contacted before Optics, later religions can be quite powerful. For example, LoR has an option to make it easier to spread later religions, and it turns Divine Right into a must-have tech on oversized maps, i.e.

1) Tech DR
2) Found Islam
3) Divine Right gives a free Great Prophet
4) Found Shrine
5) Wait 20 turns
6) 50 /turn income from religion spread

 

[Archon_Wing]

With the exception of Islam they're religions the human player actually has a good chance of founding. Founding one of the earlier ones cripples your game even if you manage it. If you have non-religous AIs you might not even get any religons at all. Confucianism is the one that someone playing fairly standard can achieve. You can oracle CoL, or bulb Theo/Philo. But it really only plays a big role if you're trying to AP abuse. Egypt can be pretty adept at it thanks to their unique building that can run priests, allowing a fast theology bulb. Whether or not that's a good idea is up to you.

If you have a neighbor that you don't like, you can gift them a few missionaries and don't adopt that religion; chances are they'll get hated and you'll get a chance to collect some sweet shrine gold. This is the best way to put annoying pe

You don't want to found too many religions because you should leave it up to the AI to spend their hammers spreading religions. Getting your own makes it harder for the AI to give you religion as having a religion present blocks autospread and also increases missionary failure rates. This is why getting one of the first 3 is an awful choice most of the time even if you can get it. Especially earlier games where production is lower and it's physically harder to send missionaries due to barbs, lack of roads, etc. This means the first few religion spreads are crucial as it takes time to build up the +diplo for shared religion. It could be the difference between them plotting against you or getting them to pleased and making things easier.

If you want to spread some, do it to their biggest cities and they'll eventually do the work for you. Also, lovefests are good for your side; not so good on the rival end of the world. Ideally, you want your side of the world to be a lovefest to increase your tech rate, while the uncivilized bumpkins on the other side make for easy targets once you're done betraying your former friends or not.

One funny thing that can happen is if you can box in a religious AI, especially they have mediocre land you don't want for yourself. Them remaining small and creating the dominating religion is one of the best things that can happen to you as you can turn them into your NotVassalButEffectivelyOne non-factor that will help you win the game. Make sure you don't let them build the AP. Otherwise there would be a bit of violence. This person is usually Isabella....

As for Divine Right, it houses 2 wonders; neither which will come into play in a regular game. I can imagine Versailles being a thing on maps with many landmasses but then there is state property.... Honestly, it's one of those wonders where you're better off capturing it.

Finally, note that you can switch religions while building the AP as long as the target religion is in the city that builds it. Spiritual Civs or Civs with a Golden Age can do some funny stuff. So say everyone likes Buddhism. You start building the AP and found Taoism, then use the missionary to try and convert that building city. If it succeeds you can switch over to Taoism just before the AP finishes, and switch back to get on everyone's good side. On Prince, you can always found Christianity and Taoism without a beeline. Doing that will discourage them from getting the tech for a while as they can no longer found Christianity and lets you more leeway as it is very annoying when missionaries fail.

 

[sirdanilot]

With the exception of Islam they're religions the human player actually has a good chance of founding. Founding one of the earlier ones cripples your game even if you manage it. If you have non-religous AIs you might not even get any religons at all. Confucianism is the one that someone playing fairly standard can achieve. You can oracle CoL, or bulb Theo/Philo. But it really only plays a big role if you're trying to AP abuse. Egypt can be pretty adept at it thanks to their unique building that can run priests, allowing a fast theology bulb. Whether or not that's a good idea is up to you.

If you have a neighbor that you don't like, you can gift them a few missionaries and don't adopt that religion; chances are they'll get hated and you'll get a chance to collect some sweet shrine gold. This is the best way to put annoying pe

You don't want to found too many religions because you should leave it up to the AI to spend their hammers spreading religions. Getting your own makes it harder for the AI to give you religion as having a religion present blocks autospread and also increases missionary failure rates. This is why getting one of the first 3 is an awful choice most of the time even if you can get it. Especially earlier games where production is lower and it's physically harder to send missionaries due to barbs, lack of roads, etc. This means the first few religion spreads are crucial as it takes time to build up the +diplo for shared religion. It could be the difference between them plotting against you or getting them to pleased and making things easier.

If you want to spread some, do it to their biggest cities and they'll eventually do the work for you. Also, lovefests are good for your side; not so good on the rival end of the world. Ideally, you want your side of the world to be a lovefest to increase your tech rate, while the uncivilized bumpkins on the other side make for easy targets once you're done betraying your former friends or not.

One funny thing that can happen is if you can box in a religious AI, especially they have mediocre land you don't want for yourself. Them remaining small and creating the dominating religion is one of the best things that can happen to you as you can turn them into your NotVassalButEffectivelyOne non-factor that will help you win the game. Make sure you don't let them build the AP. Otherwise there would be a bit of violence. This person is usually Isabella....

As for Divine Right, it houses 2 wonders; neither which will come into play in a regular game. I can imagine Versailles being a thing on maps with many landmasses but then there is state property.... Honestly, it's one of those wonders where you're better off capturing it.

Finally, note that you can switch religions while building the AP as long as the target religion is in the city that builds it. Spiritual Civs or Civs with a Golden Age can do some funny stuff. So say everyone likes Buddhism. You start building the AP and found Taoism, then use the missionary to try and convert that building city. If it succeeds you can switch over to Taoism just before the AP finishes, and switch back to get on everyone's good side. On Prince, you can always found Christianity and Taoism without a beeline. Doing that will discourage them from getting the tech for a while as they can no longer found Christianity and lets you more leeway as it is very annoying when missionaries fail.

Thanks a lot for this advice. I always tried to found the early religions (when starting with mysticism) but there is apparently no reason to.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Yea, you just sacrifice too much for it; you're better off getting worker techs and getting more practical things.

Just for kicks I fired up a prince game and did a rushed playthrough where I oracle CoL and try to do a religious strategy. The AP is under Confucianism but rest assured nobody's adopting that. This might have been the worst possible map to do it on. Granted my start location is rather poor with only a plains cow for food.



As you can see, while the situation isn't bad, I would have had a much easier time simply developing my land and just capturing the continent. Let them do the work. Then again I also did really bad things like building the mids and forgetting I finished them. And then the capital is working unimproved plains tiles instead of a specialist because reasons.

What really pissed me off is that Isabella actually failed to found a religion (I think she lost it to Monty....???) So she readily adopted my Confucianism. Then she found Christianity and changes despite me spreading all that religion to her cities and thus wasting all my time. Monty eats her alive to nobody's surprise.

If I had gone for one of the earlier ones, it'd be even poorer.

In reality, it's just for that....

Spoiler :

 

[lindsay40k]

Confucianism is pretty easy to spread because if you Oracle it, you get a free Missionary to drop in a rival's capital, significantly increasing the number of trade routes and amount of cultural pressure. You also get easy access to a GPro to get your Shrine online.

Christianity seems to spread well. I find it often gets founded by a rather zealous AI, who invests a lot of hammers into spreading it.

The main utility from founding Taoism is an extra Monastery in your maturing Bureaucap, and removing the carrot that draws the AI along the Liberalism line - if a tech has an unfounded religion, the AI wants it. You also get a Monastery from Christianity or Islam, but these are not very easy to get whilst prioritising CS & Lib, especially if there's some religion-liking AI around.

Of course, if you're doing a Culture game, the later religions are serious boons. Plus if you are SPI, or plan to go Free Religion, each faith you accumulate is a source of extra happiness.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Necro this thread.

First to code of laws through Oracle. First to philosophy through great scientists. It happens naturally.

Not sure about Buddhism or Hinduism. I believe meditation goes turn 9 and polytheism goes turn 11 on normal speed?

To found it, we will need
- financial leader
- start with mysticism
- settle immediately (turn 0) on top of a resource tile that gives you two commerce in the city tile itself
- work an oasis tile
- not the Incas, they got the terrace.

I believe first to monotheism is good for jungle isolated starts without luxury resources. Warning: does not work on deity.

Spoiler :

Nasty map. One possibility is fishing --> masonry --> polytheism --> monotheism

Charlemagne IMM Isolation Challenge

Hey guys, I am posting a very challenging map that @konata_LS sent to me and I wanted to share and see other people's approach to this type of situation. After playing 10 or 15 turns you will probably realize why it's tough. Found this harder than many regular deity games. Also note that it's...

forums.civfanatics.com

Another one

[BTS] - How to approach interesting map [immortal world builder save]

Immortal, fractal, standard speed and settings, no tribal villages, no random events. It's an okay map, not easy not difficult. I am not sure if my approach was correct. The starting screen Some more spoilers

forums.civfanatics.com

I played it twice. First time conventially, depending on hereditiary rule. It was difficult.

Second time was fishing --> mysticism --> masonry --> polythsiem --> monotheism --> sailing --> mining --> bronze working --> iron working --> priesthood. It went more smoothly. Temples are underrated.

First to theology on immortal difficulty

Spoiler :

Found a city, use the missionary there, gift to Tokugawa, open borders and tech trades.

I even built the Hagia Sophia because I had marble. Then I built the Apostolic Palace and voted for Tokugawa. Tokugawa then proposed to assign Native American cities to me.

First to divine right on deity difficulty

Spoiler :

This one from this thread:

Deity Peaceful Space [Fractal/Standard/Normal]

Hello fellow civ fanatics! It's time for a new challenge! It's time to unleash the ultimate builder in you! It's time to beat deity as you have never done so before...! I present: the peaceful space challenge! :goodjob: I have played this map already. I lost, but got close enough to...

forums.civfanatics.com

The stipulation is "cannot declare war". We're on our own continent. Even without stipulation I might have done it. Once we found divine right, the other AIs do not want to research it, so we can trade it around.

No screenshot but another time I was stuck on a continent with Ragnar of the Vikings. The situation was precarious until the Vikings found Islam and we became friendly with hereditiary rule and Islam.

 

[AcaMetis]

For what it's worth the game's manual actually mentioned this question, indirectly. In short the number of religions the game has seemed best for game balance during testing, so that's what the developers went with.

 

[TruePurple]

Don't forget that being a different religion than the AI can be used for a 40% discount on your spy activities, especially nice when stealing tech combined with the 50% discount with sitting there 5 turns.

I like founding at least one city. I suppose you could take over a AI holy city, if you are in a position to conquer them. But then the AI will poorly place cities.

You get a holy city, you get at least one great person to build the church in that holy city, that gives you bonus gold for every city its in. Now this is the city you use for your stockmarket national wonder and big corporations for in internal use as well. You'll definitely want this city along a ocean so preferable not to build or take a city not touching ocean (fresh water doesn't count) before you can found a religion.

More religions means more chances to do this.

 

[ArchGhost]

On the player's side, later religions can be useful for getting AP victories.

If you are able get ahold of Taoism with a GS bulb and then trade/already teched Theology fast enough to build the AP before a zealot does, you can choose to lock it in this relatively obscure but easy to get religion and shut out the victory option for the AIs by spreading it yourself first, then only spreading to one city each in the AI's territory. Even if it spreads naturally to them before this, they are very less likely to spam it compared to the earlier religions they've already had time to spread around everywhere, giving you the massive majority. You just have to be wary of Theocracy running AIs to make this work, which may require some trickery to get into their empire.

This also ignores the easier/faster prospect of just rushing the AP and snagging Christianity through Theology yourself, and doing the exact same thing but sooner using that religion. But you need to have contact and access to everybody as early as possible; intercontinental civs can throw a wrench into fast APs just as much as a Theocracy adopter.

I also like using Tao through a Philo bulb to guarantee my GP farm spot will benefit from Pacifism through the missionary it gives. Several games where the prospect city either doesn't get any religion at all to swap to, or is in one that is specifically a bad idea to use due to the field of opponents who will be displeased with you while you farm GPPs for ~7-15 turns....



Later religions can be used to buff up cultural cities for the push to Legendary with their cathedrals. you generally only need about 2-3 of them in the target cities but again, due to things like the map you can be denied access to one or more of the more accessible early religions if a zealot is spamming them on another continent with no contact for like half the game....



On the AI's side....there seems to be no major benefit. It railroads their tech if they are a zealot pursuing their own religion and they got beat to all the earlier ones, and the associated techs are pretty crappy or not properly used (in Philo's case) by them...and then if they do adopt it, it shakes up diplomacy and makes wars more likely to involve them. AIs benefit massively from lovefests in the same religious bloc and not from constant sparring with one another.

 

[danjuno]

I usually pick up Confucianism from CoL (obvious I know) and Taoism from Philosophy en route to Liberalism.

 

[Lennier]

That’s when they’re discovered, but would you not pursue those techs if they came without a religion?

 

[lymond]

That’s when they’re discovered, but would you not pursue those techs if they came without a religion?

absolutely...they are important techs

 

[sampsa]

I did once have a game where I didn't get Confu, got Taoism and it was the only religion on my continent (2AI) so it became widespread. Perhaps this happens once in thousands of games though.

 

[danjuno]

That’s when they’re discovered, but would you not pursue those techs if they came without a religion?

Nope! The only religions worth founding yourself, rather than letting the AI invite you to the party, are the ones you pick up as a bonus from useful techs. CoL is one of the most important early-game techs, while Philosophy and Theology are on the path to Liberalism. Theo is technically optional, but you also unlock the AP, which if you go for will probably be with an already established religion.