What is the worst Unique Building?

[Malkaviel]

I voted research institute, same premise others have said mall. At least mall can be easily bee-lined and provides much needed happiness in late game when you're probably not running hereditary rule anymore.

Research institute comes too late in the game, providing a redundant bonus to tech, when you had to get to the last handful of tech in the first place to even build it.

I'd rather have a dun early on than have research institute to "look forward to".

 

[dzdydx]

Can more people try this out and see if we can resolve this? All I know is that I went into a game, used the worldbuilder to change a lighthouse into a trading post, then built a caravel, and it had the free Navigation I promotion like it should but no option to take Nav II with the first promotion. I even tried it again in another game, this time with a transport, and once again I had to take Flanking I before I could get Navigation II. I'm running BtS 3.19.

Could it be that Nav II isn't available to a lvl 1 unit? ie you have to at least promote the unit once before having the option to promote to Nav II

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

Exactly how does Stele help warring? If you're going to take stuff with your army, why are you worried about "culture crushing"? Pushing culture is a total waste of time if you're going to take the area with force regardless. If you mean consolidating conquests, that +25% won't do anything against thousands of entrenched foreign culture if the former owner is still around.

The owner won't be. What part of 'ruthless' and 'warmonger' was not clear?

 

[Silu]

My bad, Nav2 requires both Nav1 and F1 (stated quite clearly in the 'pedia). Could have sworn I've done straight Nav2, must have been a different patch or a dream...

The owner won't be. What part of 'ruthless' and 'warmonger' was not clear?

My point - what does the Stele give then that the CRE trait doesn't already provide? Fighting culture wars against ghosts?

 

[Fei Kelei]

Could it be that Nav II isn't available to a lvl 1 unit? ie you have to at least promote the unit once before having the option to promote to Nav II

Just tried it by taking Combat I with the first promotion. Doesn't work. You have to take Flanking I to get Navigation II. I still don't understand how TMIT could have gotten Nav II without it.

 

[Clam Spammer]

At least the Dun (which most hate) actually will help alot of units and helps get Celtic Swordsmen to Guerrila 3 should the map make that worthwhile. But, the main value of the Dun is making archers and longbows even harder to kill in your hill cities, or in multiplayer to send x2 hills longbows or swords to pillage mines.

"Celtic Swordsmen" get Guerrila I free anyway, so the benefit is wasted here. Other melee units don't get the promotion by the way, with or without the Dun - it's for archers and gunpowder only (IIRC the in-game description is misleading on this point). Usually archers are just emergency barb-defense troops for when you have no metal since it's a dead-end tech.

 

[Fei Kelei]

I don't usually go for Military Science, but doing that along with Steel (since they're close to each other on the tech tree) and delaying Rifling might be worth it with the Dun so you can build some Guerrilla III grenadiers.

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

My point - what does the Stele give then that the CRE trait doesn't already provide? Fighting culture wars against ghosts?

The Stele gives a percentage boost on top whatever culture is being produced, meaning that border pops are very fast and so the benefits of being creative are amplified, especially if you build more stuff that produces culture.

 

[RD-BH]

"Celtic Swordsmen" get Guerrila I free anyway, so the benefit is wasted here. Other melee units don't get the promotion by the way, with or without the Dun - it's for archers and gunpowder only (IIRC the in-game description is misleading on this point). Usually archers are just emergency barb-defense troops for when you have no metal since it's a dead-end tech.

Archery units, not just archers.
Crossbowmen + Gallic Warrior is a pretty hardy combo.
Longbowmen (especially on a hill city) are powerful defenders.
Guerilla III Celts pouring out of the hills into enemy territory ... priceless.
Unfortunately, I find them useful for a very limited amount of time (on deity).
I can get 2..3 cities before I need to take the slow road around the hills with cats.
Certainly, a better player can do more with them.

 

[PreLynMax]

I've had a lot of successes in high levels with the Dun.
I'm going have to go with the Stele. Don't get me wrong. I've been so dominate with the Ethopians, I needed to witch civilations just for a challenge... but do I really need the extra culture with a Creative leaderead? Sounds like overkill to me.

 

[sakhmet]

I don't understand, why Stele gets so many votes.
Let me encourage you to play a game with ZY and build Stonehenge or a stele in every city.
It is flat out - amazing. You get so much land.

I like it.

 

[Fleme]

I can't name a single worst one but the bad ones include:

Dun, Stele, Obelisk, Feitoria, Forum, Research Institute, Mall.

The last two for coming too late to be useful for me, Dun for very marginal benefits (I honestly don't think about defending as the Celts), Stele for being so moot it's stupid, Obelisk for never being useful for the way I play, Feitoria for being available only on coast and even then making a marginal tile just a wee bit less marginal and lastly the Forum which I'm voting: A building that will only be useful in one or two cities in your entire empire and even in those cities the benefit is so small that it won't end up shaving more than a very miniscule number of turns off your GP's. It's so much like a regular market that I'd rather have them just so I wouldn't have to look at the non-existent bonus the forum provides.

The fun thing about this is that Forum usually gets quite a bit of support from Rome fanbois along the lines of "It's great when you're Wonderspamming Augustus or going for WE/SSE" but to you I say: Get your math straight, do a little bit of testing and you'll find that the Forum is nothing more than a waste of UB.

Edit: Haha, my vote was only the second one for the Forum. Unbelievable.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I can't name a single worst one but the bad ones include:

Dun, Stele, Obelisk, Feitoria, Forum, Research Institute, Mall.

The last two for coming too late to be useful for me, Dun for very marginal benefits (I honestly don't think about defending as the Celts), Stele for being so moot it's stupid, Obelisk for never being useful for the way I play, Feitoria for being available only on coast and even then making a marginal tile just a wee bit less marginal and lastly the Forum which I'm voting: A building that will only be useful in one or two cities in your entire empire and even in those cities the benefit is so small that it won't end up shaving more than a very miniscule number of turns off your GP's. It's so much like a regular market that I'd rather have them just so I wouldn't have to look at the non-existent bonus the forum provides.

The fun thing about this is that Forum usually gets quite a bit of support from Rome fanbois along the lines of "It's great when you're Wonderspamming Augustus or going for WE/SSE" but to you I say: Get your math straight, do a little bit of testing and you'll find that the Forum is nothing more than a waste of UB.

Edit: Haha, my vote was only the second one for the Forum. Unbelievable.

A small benefit reasonably early, while still unimpressive, is not as bad as an equally pathetic benefit that comes far later. How can you miss the assembly plant in your list entirely ?

I'm with you on Feitoria (very few cities get any benefit at all, and it's late) and the forum (it is nevertheless a weak UB, just not as pathetic as possible).

Stele = culture control in an equal religion situation, and that can matter. That it is actually a solid benefit (10 ish turns toward a culture win at least...probably more) keeps it from the bottom IMO.

Obelisk = this one is either quite low or top notch, depending on just how badly you are willing to cheese this game. Theology bulb --> AP is at its easiest with egypt, and there is no more abusively cheesy win than AP religious . Can be OK with AW or farming GPP for a mid-game civic switch or caste/pac golden age switch/starve. I don't rate this highly overall, but the uses are there and way more prevalent than crap like germany's.

Dun = Don't get me wrong, I don't rate it highly either. Still, stacked guerrilla + CG promos can be obnoxious on hill defenders in cities. GII also allows some very amusing and annoying hill archery chokes, so one might not like seeing this crap in MP. Later in the game, muskets and grenadiers are eligible and can be applied usefully. Really not great, but even if it only sees use in 1/4 of its games as celtia, it beats the real bottom feeders.

Research Institute = For most victories, never seen. For space, it is a material benefit...and it's ok in OCC also. One of the only buildings of its kind (sharing with the salon) and a consistently helpful benefit once available.

Mall = Actually underrated, it is probably the better of America's two uniques. If you don't build the culture wonders, they still make solid late-game trades, since you get THREE for each with these suckers + broadcast towers. Gold is an added benefit and can help late game $$$ rush. If a different UB conferred similar benefits earlier in the game it would be overpowered actually (like allowing +3 per market resource and MOAR GOLD % or something). Great? No...you don't see it enough game to game. Better than Feitoria/Assembly Plant? Miles.

 

[Fleme]

Forgot about the Assembly Plant and in all honesty I do like it a bit with all the Engineer slots - I don't mind building one of them plants in my gp farm as Freddy and setting up a convenient Mining Inc with the yield. Furthermore, with the increased building speed from coal it is easy and fast to industrialize Germany (and destroy it healthwise)

Mall just comes too late for my taste as my games rarely extend to the modern era. Granted, the bonuses are excellent, but it's just too late.

Stele is out for me because I hardly ever pursue a cultural win and as such monuments to begin with are a huge mismatch with creative, even more so when the bonus is nothing more than even more culture.

I guess you could flag for the Obelisk (and Madrassa for this scenario) in specific situations but again, I can't recall the last time I bulbed Theology or knowingly aimed for an AP win but I can see how extra priests are good in an ideal scenario with Ramesses where you control the 'Mids and get the AW. Don't get me wrong, Prophets are great for funding and supporting wars early-mid but I just find myself more inclined to follow the middle path and as such I disregard the benefits of the Obelisk.

I honestly don't usually even build walls unless I really feel threatened and as such I rarely build duns either. It's somewhat useful for the AI because it loves settling on hills. I know it's exciting to see an army of Boudica where your units have pretty much every promotion imaginable with some guerrilla, combat and whatever specialties you want thrown in but the bottom line is that Celtia's units don't need the kind of help the Dun offers. I respect the notion of choking but wouldn't you agree that a solid WM axe/spear combo is more immovable than an archer on a hill? Perhaps not by much, but those don't require you to build a walls to execute. (Not that an archer choke is bad, don't get me wrong)

The RI is an OCC building, agreed. An OCCing Peter gets decent mileage out of it but for example with Catherine I don't think I've ever made it that far. Heck, I don't think I've made it to tanks with her that many times.

As for the Forum; I'll let anyone who thinks it's good remain in their illusion but I've done testing with it and did the math with it just for kicks in a few different scenarios and the end results were so uninspiring that I no longer have any warm feelings for that building. When I play Rome my empire can easily span 20+ cities and then there's my one city with excess food where I decide to build the Forum to accompany my Great Library, National Epic and 4 additional scientists. With all that goodness the Forum will still net less than 2 scientists worth to the pool and while I never say no to 2 scientists worth of gpp, the fact of the matter is that my other 19 cities will never see any benefits from the forum.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

wouldn't you agree that a solid WM axe/spear combo is more immovable than an archer on a hill? Perhaps not by much, but those don't require you to build a walls to execute

In single player, I don't advocate choking.

In MP, it's not super easy to execute WM chokes because people like to clear forests for just that reason. Hills, however, are forever.

I am not defending the forum, I am only saying it isn't quite the worst UB because it does SOMETHING to help you when the game is still relevant, and trivial gain near 0 > 0 gain.

 

[NihilZero]

The Mall and the Research Institute are both quite similar in that if they appeared early enough, they would be overpowered. The RI is superior to a Great Library for fewer hammers!

Modern era games are something of an ignominious taboo on this forum, but they can be fun you know. Not everybody plays on Marathon and wipes out their enemies by 1400 AD.

 

[Etheric]

Just tried it by taking Combat I with the first promotion. Doesn't work. You have to take Flanking I to get Navigation II. I still don't understand how TMIT could have gotten Nav II without it.

I guess it is a bit NOOB to read the manaul, but that is also exactly what the civilopedia says too. Navigation II requires both Flanking I and Navigation I.

I guess TMIT did a normal way (i.e. without a trading post), Flanking I, Navigation I, Navigation II. At that point it looks like Navigation I unlocks Navigation II

 

[Iranon]

I have a soft spot for the Research Institute... yes, it comes horribly late but the bonus is glorious once you actually get it and it is reasonably beelinable. If having one of the most popular great wonders as a throw-in doesn't sound good, maybe the following does.

Free specialists don't push your growth caps, so ignoring effects from city size (maintenance and civic upkeep vs. trade routes and free unit upkeep; could go either way but bigger certainly isn't better if you have well-stocked corporations) the bonus from the Research Institute is worth:
2 scientist slots, +4, +2, +2.

Now, getting that food surplus would normally require 2 grassland farms... and of course, the citizens working them would count against the growth caps too. So we end up with

2 scientist slots, magically grows your BFC by 2 flat grassland tiles, +4, +4

This sounds like a rather desirable piece of infrastructure to me. Still not good enough to be worth the wait? Maybe not... but in my opinion the other lategame UBs don't offer nearly as much to compensate.

***

The forum is easily identifiable as weak. 4 times the bonus of almost any other UB (if scalable) instead of a trait would be too powerful, 4 times the bonus of the forum is strictly worse than PHI.
Maybe not among the very weakest in the real world because it comes reasonably early, doesn't obsolete and it will reliably have a minor effect (things like the Obelisk and most military UBs can be completely irrelevant)... but certainly among the least powerful.

***

The Assembly Plant is an interesting one. In my opinion it's weak overall and downright terrible for Frederick.
In addition to the engineer slots, the discount for coal puts you 86 final hammers ahead... unless you get the ORG discount in which case you're only 30 final hammers ahead.

You can spend these hammers however you wish (good since you probably have specific and urgent needs at this time, like coal plants, health buildings or hordes of infantry) but unlike other UBs the benefit doesn't increase the potential of a fully developed city (disappointing if you've been waiting for that long).

In a competition of the late bloomers, I think I prefer the Shale Plant and Mall, and I definitely rate the Research Institute above it.

 

[PreLynMax]

The Mall and the Research Institute are both quite similar in that if they appeared early enough, they would be overpowered. The RI is superior to a Great Library for fewer hammers!

Modern era games are something of an ignominious taboo on this forum, but they can be fun you know. Not everybody plays on Marathon and wipes out their enemies by 1400 AD.

I'd be lucky enough if I win a gay before the 19th century!
By 1400 AD, I'm nowhere NEAR formidable enough to launch a sucessfull war campaign, and by 1600 AD, I won't go nearly as close if I was playing as a warmonger (I'm ten times more sucessful as a peacemonger than a warmonger, with no Noble level Domination victories under my belt).

You expect me to ruin my ecomony by attempting to take over the world before 1400 AD? I have no time for such nonsense!

 

[Fluroscent]

How can a production bonus on a building you are going to build almost everywhere be useless? Don't get me wrong, I think the assembly plant is a weak UB, definitely way worse than the average. But in space race/late military games it is definitely not useless. And the marginal benefit of more engineer spots CAN be used to an advantage, to allow more diverse GP production, and to grab corps. There is also late and very late. Mall+research institute are very late, but the assembly plant is still early enough that a production bonus will matter.
It is definitely less marginal than the once in a blue moon you might build a dun AND actually have it be more than a regular wall.
I think dun should give the promo and open up the branch to all military units, and GWs should get an innate hill defense instead so they could get the dun bonus too.