What is the worst Unique Building?

[rollo1066]

I picked the Dun. I don't play Celts that often but I've never found the Dun much help when I did.

 

[azzaman333]

Looks to me like SH costs 1 AI capitol. Not worth it . Maybe after on levels where after is possible.

More succinct that what I was going to say.

 

[vicawoo]

This is the part I'm a little unsure about. How much does that +1 food really help? Of course in the early game, 1 extra food is pretty big. But by the time Barays come around, cities are around 4-6 pop (at least the ones that you'll actually be building Barays in - they wouldn't be on my list of first builds in new cities). I think that would only shave off 2-3 turns, even on Marathon, which I almost always play.

Maybe I'll set up a test and figure out the exact numbers later.

Barays look good enough on paper that you'd think you want them in every city... and then they turn out to be underwhelming in practice.

If you don't need the health, you're getting 1 food per turn for 100 hammers, which even if you value food 2.5 to 1 to hammers, is still very poor. If you 3 pop whip, you're making up for at least 42 food lost, which is still 42 turns to break even, disregarding the 10 hammers.

Obviously if you're unhealthy, the health is worth 1 food, so it scales to say 40/2 = 20 turns or 13 turns for at least 2 unhealthiness.

But if we think about it more carefully, let's say we're at -1 food from unhealthiness and we build an aqueduct. We're not at +1 food, so we only recovered 1 food, or in the case of a baray, 2.
If we 3 pop whipped the aqueduct, we might switch from -1 food to +2 health (0 food). The baray food kicks in immediately, while aqueducts don't until we grow 3 more sizes. But this says more about aqueducts not being that great.

So a baray is worth:
1 food per turn, + an additional 1 to 2 food per turn once we grow to a previously unhealthy state, whereas an aqueduct is just worth the latter. Once we reach 40 or 50 food, it's broken even.
So it's decent (50 food in 30 turns) if after the whip/build we can regrow to previously a previous -1 food from unhealthiness state in 10 turns, but outstanding if we can regrow to a previous -2 food in 10 turns (50 food in 20 turns).

Not considering that you can't whip wealth, and the ability to work an extra tile.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Barays are not "wow" UBs and they do not scream "build this ASAP in every city", however the 1 food is still enough value-over-base to help the khmer consistently game to game, and it is a factor in every game that doesn't end in pre-medieval conquest generally. When you compare it against buildings that 1) offer LESS value-over-base and 2) are available LATER in the game, it's easy to see that while not exactly stellar the baray is nowhere near worst UB.

 

[obsolete]

If I really wanted my bows, longbows, xbows, etc. to have Guerilla, I'd simply pick Sitting Bull. Then my UB gets me BOTH Guerilla I & Guerilla II, and I also have a base of CG1 and Drill I right out of the gate, all without burning off any exps.

+ my UB lasts longer, haha!

But as bad as the Dune is, I think German assembly plant may be at the bottom of the list. Since > 99% of players won't be getting use out of it, and it comes too late anyhow, just like the UU.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If I really wanted my bows, longbows, xbows, etc. to have Guerilla, I'd simply pick Sitting Bull. Then my UB gets me BOTH Guerilla I & Guerilla II, and I also have a base of CG1 and Drill I right out of the gate, all without burning off any exps.

+ my UB lasts longer, haha!

But as bad as the Dune is, I think German assembly plant may be at the bottom of the list. Since > 99% of players won't be getting use out of it, and it comes too late anyhow, just like the UU.

Speaking of the XP requirement, guerrilla I comes at 0xp for dun. The dun also applies to a larger class of units (gunpowder in addition to archery), and I have no idea what you're talking about with the totem pole lasting longer. Totem pole functionally obsoletes after longbows/xbows, but its actual obsolete point is astronomy...but the dun does not obsolete until rifling. Granted, you might pick up rifling first in some situations, but the beaker cost to rifling is greater than astro. Technically, you can run around with dun-boosted grenadiers, although practical applications of that are...quite rare .

Overall I'd still prefer the totem pole because it meshes better with traits available and doubles as a very typical early build in most cities (whereas walls are less common). Nevertheless, the dun provides some defensive beef (and MP offensive annoyance...guerrilla II and III longbow chokes are a pain although rarely is celtia picked for that rather than just using 5 xp) at a time where Celts might need it.

Certainly, dun comes out ahead of woofers like feitoria, assembly plant, and other late-game UBs that offer minimal value-over-base despite long wait times, even if it is a bottom 10 UB it is not realistically the worst.

But rookies voting in GD polls routinely pick options in ignorance, so it's not that surprising.

 

[kochman]

Hold the phone...
Dun better than Assembly Plant?

Hardly.
It may come later, but it is a damn fine way to industrialize QUICKLY, then start building your panzers and paratroopers... send in the spies in advance to create riots when you are at the city gates...
Pretty solid.

Duns... well... I do build walls more frequently than I build monuments unless I have a CHR leader.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hold the phone...
Dun better than Assembly Plant?

Hardly.
It may come later, but it is a damn fine way to industrialize QUICKLY, then start building your panzers and paratroopers... send in the spies in advance to create riots when you are at the city gates...
Pretty solid.

Duns... well... I do build walls more frequently than I build monuments unless I have a CHR leader.

I'm not holding anyone's crappy land line 56k modem phone.

You get a production bonus on the thing IF and ONLY IF you have a resource. On top of that, it is a somewhat marginal bonus for one of germany's leaders, who already gets a 100% bonus there. The only other benefit is engineer slots...which are rarely relevant anytime soon in tandem with the unhealth. Factories and power come long before either panzers or paras, with or without the bonus.

At least the shale plant gives a production bonus and GUARANTEED benefit. Assembly plant can't even manage that.

This is, of course, bearing in mind that many games are decided before the factories are completed...vastly reducing the #games where the already pitiful value-over-base of the assembly plant has any meaningful factor.

Put it this way:

- How many games do you play where declaring 3-5 turns sooner in the modern era changes the outcome of the game?

- How many games do you play where a defending an early DoW successfully changes the game?

THAT is why the dun > assembly plant. It helps a civ against one of the most common ways people lose. It does not help in every game, but neither does the assembly plant. In the games where it does help, it helps A LOT MORE...and those games are more frequent.

Panzers are pretty much trash also in terms of value-over-base too, giving germany one of the worst UU/UB pairings in the game, especially against the AI which seems to hate building more than a couple tanks ever. Even USA's pairing is a little bit better, albeit not much.

 

[kochman]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Assembly Plant isn't the best ever, but to me, it CLEARLY whips the Dun.

The bonus of the dun doesn't really help me to defend an early DoW, unless all my cities are on hills. And, how many extra Great People can the Dun help you to get? Ever?

And, I have yet to play a game without coal in my borders by that point... and it is soooooo cheap to build.
Obviously, if you don't have coal, it negates the plant... but I always have had at least one coal.
The health? That is easily enough overcome by going cottage/workshop instead of farming, and keeping your population down until you use the extra research to research health related techs.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The bonus of the dun doesn't really help me to defend an early DoW, unless all my cities are on hills. And, how many extra Great People can the Dun help you to get? Ever?

Wrong. Only your immediate border city the AI is threatening has to be on a hill.

The second part of the quoted argument is stupid. Let me show you why by asking a similarly stupid question back: How many anti-catapult bombard turns and bonus promotions do you get from the assembly plant? Ever?

By the way, in terms of "extra" great people, you'll get 1 extra at most by then, from like one city, and then only if you try to turn cities into GP farms.

And, I have yet to play a game without coal in my borders by that point

Somehow, "never" seems false here.

and it is soooooo cheap to build.

Granted, the build time is the primary material benefit of the assembly plant. It saves you a few turns very very late in the game. I don't deny the benefit...I deny that this is making a material difference in the outcome of the overwhelming majority of games.

As for health issues, usually one just builds the factory + coal plant and sucks up unhealth. One thing you do NOT do, however, is build factories or assembly plants to run a bunch of 0f 2h engineers rather than working 0f 5h, 1f 4h, or even 2f4h tiles. Normal forge + factory already gives 3 engineer slots. You've got to be kidding me that your typical production city has so much junk that it wants to run 5 engineers. Might be nice in some rare situations.

 

[kochman]

The second part of the quoted argument is stupid. Let me show you why by asking a similarly stupid question back: How many anti-catapult bombard turns and bonus promotions do you get from the assembly plant? Ever?

It's not stupid at all, it depends on what you value more. I value GP points more guerilla I promotions. The GE, or whatever they actually spawn based on quicker GP production, can be HUGE in getting corps, completing wonders (such as the space elevator for example, or the 3 Gorges Dam)... much more valuable to me than guerilla I promotions. You only need those extra GP points in a handful of cities anyway, your GP farms... so, yeah, that helps a lot really.

You make a good point about only needing the dun in one city... which further shows how limited it is... APlants can be built in all cities, and crank out way more units that are awesome than the one city with Dun can crank out units one at a time.

And, yes, the Dun gets me any more anti-catapult bombard turns than regular walls, which Germany can still build, but twice as many... this can help, surely.
Guerilla I promotions are nice, but not something I am regularly picking, I prefer the woodsman line if I go either way, but it is good for an invading stack to have a guerilla or two if going through hilly territory, of course.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's not stupid at all, it depends on what you value more. I value GP points more guerilla I promotions.

That isn't 100% of your argument. You're saying you value a max 6 extra GPP at turn 200+ (normal speed, I highly doubt you have AL before turn 200, and probably significantly later) more than access to early defense. You seem to conveniently leave out that by the time one gets to AL they've hopefully farmed a LOT of GPP.

can be HUGE in getting corps

Specifically 1 of 2 corps: createcon or mining inc (the latter being the #1 corp in the game). 1 problem with this argument: If you're optimizing mining inc, you're going to get it before AL based on the HoF space wins. If you go all the way out to AL and THEN start farming engineers, you can easily miss the corp. So might it help get mining inc? Possibly. Is it HUGE? Yeah right. That is, of course, for games where state property doesn't beat the hell out of mining inc setup costs vs returns anyway.

By the way, space elevator sucks in BTS and 3GD is generally iffy by that point unless you don't have coal.

You make a good point about only needing the dun in one city... which further shows how limited it is... APlants can be built in all cities, and crank out way more units that are awesome than the one city with Dun can crank out units one at a time.

I'm not sure what direction to take with this...I can either point out that you didn't actually read what I said, or I can simply point out why you're wrong, or both. Both I guess. I said only the CITY DEFENDED need be on a hill. Obviously you can produce the units anywhere.

Also, a lot of the things you're arguing in favor of are not unique to the assembly plant...they're true of factories in general. Talking about the bonuses from factories in general is IRRELEVANT, the only relevant consideration is the variance provided by the UB, same thing with the dun and guerrilla I. It's annoying to argue against irrelevant points.

The fact of the matter is that neither of us have definitive proof measured game-to-game to show that one of these UBs affects the outcome of a game more than the other, but I suspect something that aids in early survival has more impact than something situationally beneficial later on.

 

[kochman]

Again, 1 or 2 cities with better walls? Or ALL cities with better, cheaper factories.

No, it isn't limited to 2 Corps. GP points from engineers do not gaurantee GEs unless there are no other GP points being earned in that city.

I don't think SE sucks in BTS, it can make the difference, especially in the later pieces to be built, such as the engines, where you get a hefty savings in .

So, you would build unnecessary walls in all your cities to get Guerilla I promotions? What a waste of

Also, a lot of the things you're arguing in favor of are not unique to the assembly plant...they're true of factories in general.

It is relevant because you get them for cheaper than regular factories. So... the bonus is basically multiplied time and again.

I can say this... I have never had duns save my games... but I have had plants lead to my victory. As an offensive player such as yourself, I am surprised you value this meager defense over the boost in and subsequent number of units that aren't only helpful in hill defense unless you invest all the way into Guerilla 3.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I don't think you can quite call the Feitoria a Woofer. Yes, ocean squares suck to work as it is, but at least on certain map types, and in certain circumstances it is quite a nice building. It is hard to say that about a lot of other ones.
The Assembly plant really lacks for identity. It can give you some more great engineers... but then you already will be having health problems meaning you'll need to work food giving squares (Even grass hills) to help keep up. Furthermore, at that point in the game, a single citizen should easily produce more than two hammers, even in close to maxed out towns.

So that generally means you are using it for Great Engineer points. That late in the game any GP farm that exists is likely strongly diluted with other types of GPP. So you would merely influence, not assure. If you just need more possible specialists... that isn't all that hard to get.

The only real scenario I can see it being very useful is if you have enough food and population that you have forced specialists, and want to get as much production as possible.



One last note on the Obelisk: It may not look impressive, but it is about the only Unique Building that opens up an entirely new strategy early on.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Again, 1 or 2 cities with better walls? Or ALL cities with better, cheaper factories.

You build factories in GPP and heavy commerce sites? Maybe eventually. Maybe you just can't read. You obviously put the dun in as many cities as you are using for military, and then again in the border city for actual defenses.

No, it isn't limited to 2 Corps. GP points from engineers do not gaurantee GEs unless there are no other GP points being earned in that city.

Enough pretend fairy la la land GPP. You aren't going to be spamming engineers off the factory or any replacement effectively. This aspect of the deal helps you in ONE CITY TOPS, your GP farm. Sounds like YOUR argument for walls. If you have a proper NE city your hammer cities will not catch it even if you stupidly run engineers in them. Which, by the way, also nerfs your "other corp" argument, as if you are going to pursue other GPP, there are LOTS of ways to get it that better fits the intended GP. Even in emancipation there are 8 slots available in a city with the basic commerce multipliers, a forge, and a courthouse. Not many cities are going to be running 6+ specs all the time, least of all the ones dedicated towards production! Keep in mind that regular factories already add engineer slots...in this comparison it's the TWO EXTRA that need to be used to be relevant.

So, you would build unnecessary walls in all your cities to get Guerilla I promotions? What a waste of

I never said that. Again, it seems you can't read properly. You treat them like barracks - build them as needed. Anti-rush that's usually 0-3 cities.

I don't think SE sucks in BTS, it can make the difference, especially in the later pieces to be built, such as the engines, where you get a hefty savings in .

It sure can make a difference! It wastes your time and slows you down. Definitely useful right there! Robotics is not needed for space and rarely will you pull it from internet before most parts are done. Then there's the issue of burning an engineer on that vs a golden age...and considering how many parts have already been constructed. Of course, one engineer won't finish it anyway.

Usually, you already lost out just by TECHING robotics.

It is relevant because you get them for cheaper than regular factories. So... the bonus is basically multiplied time and again.

"the bonus is basically multiplied time and again". What marketing nonsense. That doesn't mean anything, at least not anything that's true.

The situational production bonus on building the UB is relevant. Units the factory can produce is not relevant. Neither is the fact that assembly plant can be built in all cities.

I can say this... I have never had duns save my games... but I have had plants lead to my victory. As an offensive player such as yourself, I am surprised you value this meager defense over the boost in and subsequent number of units that aren't only helpful in hill defense unless you invest all the way into Guerilla 3.

Oh? I call bull@#$%. I bet you can not quantify a single game where having the assembly plant bonus over a regular factory lead you to win the game when you otherwise would have lost.

As for being an offensive player, there are uses for defensive units to screw up the AI. I bet you've died to a few extra AI DoWs that I wouldn't. Walling entire AI stacks for cheap then countering is effective...I've used it to pull K/Ds over 8:1 in medieval times.

More importantly, guerrilla II hands you an extra promotion to counter AGG melee in ancient/classical. Take a standard CG I archer defending on said hill city (definitely a good idea next to shaka no matter what UB you have), fully fortified. It will *lose* to an aggressive sword on average, especially post catapult bombardment (6.6 to 6.3). Guerrilla II gives us some wiggle room ---> 6.6 vs 7.2 defending. A guerrilla II archer is actually strong enough to beat a praetorian while defending a hill city, BEFORE defensive bonuses!

Of course, most people just reroll those starts or quit when the zulu hit you at 1500-1200 BC with 6-8 units. Those are L's. You might have lived if you had the dun, not some crap that comes so late that your play literally decides the outcome before it's available in the majority of games.

This is also why people value certain traits and hate on others - they like the nice games where everything goes well, and just quit on hard ones where the trait actually helps.

 

[Kullervo]

And now the mods are pulling on their patent leather gloves and flexing their fingers... TMIT, nice mudslinging for someone with 'Best Dipplo Policy Ever' under his Avatar. You have a point. So does Kochman. No real reason to start accusing people of illiteracy and I don't want to know what else.

The Assembly Plant is useful to me because I like Marathon games with late wars. An Assembly Plant provides me with an extra edge to my production, and I'd rather put out 20 tanks in 5 turns than 15. You ask how many games where a matter of 3 or 5 turns changes the course of the war? A lot. Even on Marathon. Because once an Immortal+ level AI gets a new military tech, then they start spamming the new, powerful unit like crazy. And in 3 or 5 turns, I can capture 2 more cities and maybe even cut off a few aluminum and oil resources. And not only the GP farm benefits from the extra engineers. If I have plenty of large cities and representation, I can get up to 500 extra beakers just from the extra engineers + multipliers and all that.

My vote still goes to the Baray. One food simply does not make much of a difference, unless I somehow capture an AI city which already has an aqueduct, but is at population three or so. Then it's somewhat nice to have the +1 food, but that's a fairly rare occurrence. Close second would be Shale Plant... just isn't useful enough.

 

[Zechnophobe]

A Very... passionate response, but also very true. I get the feeling a lot of people regenerate maps, or start over fresh, without considering it as a loss. The DoW from Monty? You could have beat that, you just were bored and didn't want to deal with fighting... yeah.

Most of the time, I think people just don't want a close game, and so if push comes to shove, they play a little bit longer, and then decide it was a 'crap start' or that the combat odds betrayed them or something, and start a new game. I don't profess to be immune to this by the way.

A dun could be the difference between losing 2 or 3 cities, or losing 1 and retaking it a few turns later. But you might never notice, because you reload after you lose the first city, without appreciating how much harder it was for the AI to take.

Anyhow, my .02

 

[vicawoo]

Concerning:kochman vs themeinteam

If there were a segment called "argue with TMIT" on that civilization podcast, I would listen to every one. It would start with a simple discussion and escalates into increasingly bombastic TMIT tirades on buildings, imbalances, and bad play. Have a guest call in and watch the ratings soar.

Edit: a demo: copy paste a select TMIT tirade into a text to speech program like this one
http://www2.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php
Select US Mike

my favorite so far are

Wrong. Only your immediate border city the AI is threatening has to be on a hill.

The second part of the quoted argument is stupid. Let me show you why by asking a similarly stupid question back: How many anti-catapult bombard turns and bonus promotions do you get from the assembly plant? Ever?

and

Oh? I call bull@#$%. I bet you can not quantify a single game where having the assembly plant bonus over a regular factory lead you to win the game when you otherwise would have lost.

and

Enough pretend fairy la la land GPP. You aren't going to be spamming engineers off the factory or any replacement effectively. This aspect of the deal helps you in ONE CITY TOPS, your GP farm. Sounds like YOUR argument for walls. If you have a proper NE city your hammer cities will not catch it even if you stupidly run engineers in them. Which, by the way, also nerfs your "other corp" argument, as if you are going to pursue other GPP, there are LOTS of ways to get it that better fits the intended GP.

 

[Zechnophobe]

My vote still goes to the Baray. One food simply does not make much of a difference, unless I somehow capture an AI city which already has an aqueduct, but is at population three or so. Then it's somewhat nice to have the +1 food, but that's a fairly rare occurrence. Close second would be Shale Plant... just isn't useful enough.

I think people misjudge the Baray a bit. Keep in mind that growth is based on (Food - (unhealth + consumption) ). That means that a Barray giving +1 food to a city that's current surplus is only 2, causes it to grow 50% faster.

Don't think in terms of max population (As even a granary isn't useful at max pop), but rather of developing population. If you are trying to grow from size 8 to size 16, you'll do it a lot faster with that +1 food.

 

[Kullervo]

Oh.... I never actually realized that... I thought it was just 2 food = 1 more population point, and if you don't have 2 more food, you starve down to the previous one and then grow up to the next one endlessly.