What leaders and/or nations do you want in Civilization VII?

[Henri Christophe]

I was wondering, okay is wrong to have fascist leaders as Hitler or Mussoline.
But this game have fascism as a game concept.
I remember, at least, in civ5 after made certain number of fabriques you should choice between liberalism, comunism and fascism.
I also remember, at the time, I was playing with Zulu and choice fascism because the military bonus and talked to my mom about it, she become afraid I'm enthusiasmatic to be a fascist leader, even if it's just a game.

But, I don't think is a good argument discard Getúlio Vargas just because it's fascist, since this game have fascism as a game option.
I don't want either see Hitler and Mussoline at the game, but Getúlio Vargas wasn't racist as the europeans fascists and it's a huge difference. Getúlio's Estado Novo could be kind of fascist, but don't have comparation of what the Nazi made.

On other hand, we don't have any mechanical to play with slavery because it's controversial. But have a full tech tree exclusive for fascists.

 

[Patine]

I was wondering, okay is wrong to have fascist leaders as Hitler or Mussoline.
But this game have fascism as a game concept.
I remember, at least, in civ5 after made certain number of fabriques you should choice between liberalism, comunism and fascism.
I also remember, at the time, I was playing with Zulu and choice fascism because the military bonus and talked to my mom about it, she become afraid I'm enthusiasmatic to be a fascist leader, even if it's just a game.

But, I don't think is a good argument discard Getúlio Vargas just because it's fascist, since this game have fascism as a game option.
I don't want either see Hitler and Mussoline at the game, but Getúlio Vargas wasn't racist as the europeans fascists and it's a huge difference. Getúlio's Estado Novo could be kind of fascist, but don't have comparation of what the Nazi made.

On other hand, we don't have any mechanical to play with slavery because it's controversial. But have a full tech tree exclusive for fascists.

I've never played Civ5, myself, and can't comment on much, there. Civ3 had a Fascism form of Government you could switch to, but they still had a lot of controversial leaders in that game (though I don't think any outright Fascists - outside, again, the WW2 scenario, which came with an Xpac, like all their historical scenarios did.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well, to be fair, three of those, as well as Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito or Hideki Tojo end up appearing in the WW2 scenarios that come with most of the iterations Civ (starting with Civ2). But that is quite unavoidable, and a necessary evil, unless I guess if you replaced them with senior military officers (Rommel to replace Hitler might be more palatable, but finding such an Italian, Japanese, or even Soviet general or admiral who was more restrained and honourable than their political leaders might also be challenge).

Rommel is probably the best known German officer from WWII and the Nazi era, but he was pretty junior for most of the war (only a Corps commander until 1942 in an army that had over 60 Corps). Unfortunately, everybody more senior were convicted or should have been convicted of War Crimes, as the German Military History Research Department has discovered in their sifting through the archives.

Can't speak to Italian or Japanese officers, but there are several Soviet candidates for 'better than Stalin' (along with most of the human beings on the planet). First, an alternate history possibility would be one of the Old Bolsheviks, most of whom Stalin had murdered, as real civilian leaders:
Lev Kamenev
Nikolai Bukharin
Grigory Zinoviev
And even two women:
Nadezhada Krupskaya - Lenin's wife
Alexandra Kollontai - leader of the 'Worker's Opposition' and a left wing feminist

Military potentials of better character than Stalin would have to include:
Leon Trotsky - if for no other reason, he's so damned Quotable:
"You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You."
"The quickest way to demoralize the enemy is to kill him in large numbers."
Aleksandr Mikhaylovich Vasilevskiy - Marshal of the Soviet Union, Chief of the Red Army General Staff during the war
Konstantin Konstantinovich Rokossovskiy - spent two years in the Gulag, ended up as a Marshal

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Instead of debating areas, continents, ethnicities, languages, etc for inclusion, here's a Thought Experiment:
include Civs in the game based on their status as Protagonists.

What I mean is, include Civs designed to make it possible to build game of historical enemies/protagonists/antagonists when you want to.
So, instead of strictly placing emphasis on geographical placement as a criteria, the emphasis would be on 'collections' of Civs that rubbed against each other in place and time.

This won't be an extremely different list from many that have been proposed, but with different arguments behind inclusions and different arguments for Alternate Leaders, if the game includes them as well.

Quick Example:
The Meddlesome Mediterranean and Middle East (Bronze Age - Classical)
Akkadians
Hittites
Egyptians
Persians
Phoenicians
Greeks
Romans
Central Eurasian Spread (Classical to Renaissance)
Sarmatians
Ottomans
Mongolia
Kushans
Sogdianans
Novgorod
Armenia
South Asian Scramble (Classical to Renaissance)
Mauryan India
Majapahit
Zimbabwe
Chola India
Khmer
Anuradhapura
Burma
East Asian Aggravation (Classical to Industrial)
China
Japan
Korea
Jurchen
Thailand
Vietnam
Tibet
African Argumentative (Classical to Industrial)
Nubia
Ethiopia
Mali
Mutapa (Great Zimbabwe)
Luba
Wanga Kingdom
Numidia
American Ambuscado (Medieval to Industrial)
Aztec
Mayan
Incan
Haudenossenee
Haida
Choctah
Comanche
European Imperialissimus (Medieval to Modern)
France
Britain/England
Germany
Spain
Portugal
Netherlands
Sweden
Atomic Endgame (Industrial to Information)
United States
Canada
Scotland
Poland
Russia
Brazil
Linking States (Ancient to Atomic)
Elam
Celts
Norse
Bulgaria
Bohemia

As said, the idea is that with the basic Civs from each group plus a coup from Atomic Endgame or Linking groups you can fight 'traditional' enemies or try to dominate the part of the world most of interest to your Civ for most of its history.
Or, as many do already, simply throw it all up to Random and see what pops out.
Just thoughts . . .

I love this (Gaul, Haiti, the Dine, Israel, Morocco and Byzantium would be the ones I'm missing)!

 

[Caesar of Bread]

I was wondering, okay is wrong to have fascist leaders as Hitler or Mussoline.
But this game have fascism as a game concept.
I remember, at least, in civ5 after made certain number of fabriques you should choice between liberalism, comunism and fascism.
I also remember, at the time, I was playing with Zulu and choice fascism because the military bonus and talked to my mom about it, she become afraid I'm enthusiasmatic to be a fascist leader, even if it's just a game.

But, I don't think is a good argument discard Getúlio Vargas just because it's fascist, since this game have fascism as a game option.
I don't want either see Hitler and Mussoline at the game, but Getúlio Vargas wasn't racist as the europeans fascists and it's a huge difference. Getúlio's Estado Novo could be kind of fascist, but don't have comparation of what the Nazi made.

On other hand, we don't have any mechanical to play with slavery because it's controversial. But have a full tech tree exclusive for fascists.

Vargas could be my only choice for a fascist leader, but still, even he isn't as good of a leader for Brasil. I'd rather Pedro II, Juscelino Kubitschek, or Nilo Penchana (you brought him up to me) as leaders of Brazil.

Can't speak to Italian or Japanese officers, but there are several Soviet candidates for 'better than Stalin' (along with most of the human beings on the planet). First, an alternate history possibility would be one of the Old Bolsheviks, most of whom Stalin had murdered, as real civilian leaders:
Lev Kamenev
Nikolai Bukharin
Grigory Zinoviev
And even two women:
Nadezhada Krupskaya - Lenin's wife
Alexandra Kollontai - leader of the 'Worker's Opposition' and a left wing feminist

Military potentials of better character than Stalin would have to include:
Leon Trotsky - if for no other reason, he's so damned Quotable:
"You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You."
"The quickest way to demoralize the enemy is to kill him in large numbers."
Aleksandr Mikhaylovich Vasilevskiy - Marshal of the Soviet Union, Chief of the Red Army General Staff during the war
Konstantin Konstantinovich Rokossovskiy - spent two years in the Gulag, ended up as a Marshal

Leon Trotsky would be quite the interesting figure, especially if Colonel Sanders can make it as the leader for America

 

[Phrozen]

Rommel is probably the best known German officer from WWII and the Nazi era, but he was pretty junior for most of the war (only a Corps commander until 1942 in an army that had over 60 Corps). Unfortunately, everybody more senior were convicted or should have been convicted of War Crimes, as the German Military History Research Department has discovered in their sifting through the archives.

Can't speak to Italian or Japanese officers, but there are several Soviet candidates for 'better than Stalin' (along with most of the human beings on the planet). First, an alternate history possibility would be one of the Old Bolsheviks, most of whom Stalin had murdered, as real civilian leaders:
Lev Kamenev
Nikolai Bukharin
Grigory Zinoviev
And even two women:
Nadezhada Krupskaya - Lenin's wife
Alexandra Kollontai - leader of the 'Worker's Opposition' and a left wing feminist

Military potentials of better character than Stalin would have to include:
Leon Trotsky - if for no other reason, he's so damned Quotable:
"You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You."
"The quickest way to demoralize the enemy is to kill him in large numbers."
Aleksandr Mikhaylovich Vasilevskiy - Marshal of the Soviet Union, Chief of the Red Army General Staff during the war
Konstantin Konstantinovich Rokossovskiy - spent two years in the Gulag, ended up as a Marshal

Perhaps Wenck but he wasn't but in a major command till the tail end of the war.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I love this (Gaul, Haiti, the Dine, Israel, Morocco and Byzantium would be the ones I'm missing)!

I don't have idea who is the Dine.
And of course I'm in all favour for Haiti, I just don't said it before to don't be repititiv.
Despite be more one european, I rly like the Gauls. I also like the history of people who lost in world history. So, the Gauls being a threat to Romans making they appealing enouth to be a civ.
Israel is very controversial because modern state of Israel, despite I'm also in favor of Palestine side of conflict. I don't think it will hurts if Fireaxis made a Israel civ.
I think the best for Israel is made over ancient aspects, but I don't will mind if they have also intermix stuffs from modern state of Israel as Krav Maga units or Airplanes used at 6 days war.
Marroco I also like to be add. I was there once, very beautifull country.
Just Byzantium I disagree, we already get over this.

Vargas could be my only choice for a fascist leader, but still, even he isn't as good of a leader for Brasil. I'd rather Pedro II, Juscelino Kubitschek, or Nilo Penchana (you brought him up to me) as leaders of Brazil.

Vargas is tottaly viable leader, but the other options you bring are too.
I'm just a bit tired of Pedro II and think we should change a bit in next game.
Speaking about Nilo Peçanha. He should be the first black leader of Brazil, if he become a civ leader. And since Fireaxis didn't made Haiti yet, it will be the first black leader of all Americas.
Nilo Peçanha was also a good president, and have a city named after him called Nilópolis, this city is well know because it's school of Samba who often win the carnaval.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

I don't have idea who is the Dine.
And of course I'm in all favour for Haiti, I just don't said it before to don't be repititiv.
Despite be more one european, I rly like the Gauls. I also like the history of people who lost in world history. So, the Gauls being a threat to Romans making they appealing enouth to be a civ.
Israel is very controversial because modern state of Israel, despite I'm also in favor of Palestine side of conflict. I don't think it will hurts if Fireaxis made a Israel civ.
I think the best for Israel is made over ancient aspects, but I don't will mind if they have also intermix stuffs from modern state of Israel as Krav Maga units or Airplanes used at 6 days war.
Marroco I also like to be add. I was there once, very beautifull country.
Just Byzantium I disagree, we already get over this.


Vargas is tottaly viable leader, but the other options you bring are too.
I'm just a bit tired of Pedro II and think we should change a bit in next game.
Speaking about Nilo Peçanha. He should be the first black leader of Brazil, if he become a civ leader. And since Fireaxis didn't made Haiti yet, it will be the first black leader of all Americas.
Nilo Peçanha was also a good president, and have a city named after him called Nilópolis, this city is well know because it's school of Samba who often win the carnaval.

Dine means Navajo (the tribe refers to themselves as Dine people).
I like both states, Israel and Palestine - I don't want to get political here...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Perhaps Wenck but he wasn't but in a major command till the tail end of the war.

Wenck was a staff officer and a Colonel for much of the war, not even a General officer. On the other hand, he was almost unique among German officers of any rank in that he had a well-known sense of humor, which at least could be a refreshing source of quotes.

Guderian and Manstein are probably, after Rommel, the best known 'top commanders' in the Wehrmacht, but both were found guilty of war crimes at Nurnberg and both, based on later research, lied like rugs in their memoirs and should have been found guilty of even worse crimes than they were accused of: from the archives it turns out both men signed orders for murderous mistreatment of civilians, in violation of the existing laws of war at the time which Germany had signed before the war. Makes their inclusion an invitation to the game being accused of whitewashing criminal behavior, which no game needs.
Rundstedt is probably the 'cleanest' Wehrmacht high-ranking officer available, but then he was basically an old-style Imperial German Officer held over into the ranks of the Wehrmacht War Criminals. Can't beat his famous quote, though, when someone asked what he wanted the high command to do to rectify the situation in France in 1944:
"End the war, you Fools!"

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Wenck was a staff officer and a Colonel for much of the war, not even a General officer. On the other hand, he was almost unique among German officers of any rank in that he had a well-known sense of humor, which at least could be a refreshing source of quotes.

Guderian and Manstein are probably, after Rommel, the best known 'top commanders' in the Wehrmacht, but both were found guilty of war crimes at Nurnberg and both, based on later research, lied like rugs in their memoirs and should have been found guilty of even worse crimes than they were accused of: from the archives it turns out both men signed orders for murderous mistreatment of civilians, in violation of the existing laws of war at the time which Germany had signed before the war. Makes their inclusion an invitation to the game being accused of whitewashing criminal behavior, which no game needs.
Rundstedt is probably the 'cleanest' Wehrmacht high-ranking officer available, but then he was basically an old-style Imperial German Officer held over into the ranks of the Wehrmacht War Criminals. Can't beat his famous quote, though, when someone asked what he wanted the high command to do to rectify the situation in France in 1944:
"End the war, you Fools!"

There are some people with amazing quotes out there.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

There are some people with amazing quotes out there.

"Nothing so comforts the military mind as the maxim of a great but dead general."
- Barbara Tuchman The Guns of August 1962.

What can I say, I'm a collector.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

"Nothing so comforts the military mind as the maxim of a great but dead general."
- Barbara Tuchman The Guns of August 1962.

What can I say, I'm a collector.

"If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month." - Theodore Roosevelt

Spoiler Zhang Zongchang's poem about B******s - Warning: profanity :

You tell me to do this,
He tells me to do that.
You're all bastards,
Go fudge your mother.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Probably my two favorite military quotes are these:

It is not the big armies that win battles: it is the good ones.
- Maurice de Saxe, 1732

It is better to be on hand with ten men than to be absent with ten thousand.
- Timur-i-Lenk (Tamerlane)

Remember those two, and the events of military history all become easy to understand.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Eh, I see this one as a contender (from personal experience?)
("What, in all the world, could bring the greatest happiness?""The open steppe, a clear day, and a swift horse under you," responded the officer after a little thought, "and a falcon on your wrist to start up hares.")
"Nay," responded the Khan, "to crush your enemies, to see them fall at your feet — to take their horses and goods and hear the lamentation of their women. That is best."

 

[BuchiTaton]

- My dad lived 2 years in Brazil (Rio), so I know some of the stuff.

Anyways:
BANDEIRANTES LITERALLY CAUGHT AND RE-ENSLAVED BLACKS/NATIVES! Why would we want someone like that?
I'd rather Juscelino Kubitschek as an alt for Brazil. Vargas was a fascist...
No.
What.
Why.
America and the Iroquois are hecking different. You'd upset so many people. Hussein literally killed so many Kurdish people it's not funny. And he's not related to Babylon in any sort of way besides land claim. Mexico and the Aztecs are also so hecking different (thank God you didn't say Santa Ana. I would have came down there and shouted "REMEMBER THE ALAMO! REMEMBER GOLIAD!" because I'm from Texas)

Kind of ironic to saw Bandeirantes as an undesirable unit becuase their relation to slavery but at the same time had already suggested to have a playable Texas, a pro-slavery state born from foreign illegal slave-owners.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Speaking about Guarani Cavalry, it could be something more ancient as cavalry guaicuru.

They have this strange way to mount on the horse to evade enemy shots.

Guaicuru are a different unrelated ethnic group, even worse they were mostly a threat to Guarani populations. Have them as Guarani UU is like have Apaches as Pueblo UU.

 

[Lord of War N02]

For Russia: I think the best choice would be Alexander Nevsky or Ivan the Terrible (Actually Ivan the Powerful) Better to avoid Kievan Rus rulers due to current conflict between Russia and Ukraine is ongoing plus as it will cause dramatic argument between Russian and Ukrainian players.

For Greece: I wanna see Non Athenian or Non Spartan leaders like Epaminondas of Thebes. I can not think of good other non Athenian and non Spartan leaders.

For Rome: Marcus Aurelius should lead Rome, the last of good five Roman Emperors and the last emperor of Pax Romana (Peace Roman)

For England: I would like to see Edward Longshanks or William the Conqueror if it is Post Anglo Saxon rulers. Pre Norman conquest rulers would be a good choice like Alfred the Great.

For France: Philip Augustus should lead France, he is one of the best French King in French history or other choice could be Francis I.

For Persia: Non Achaemenid leaders should lead Persia this time, Khosrau should lead Persia

For Ottomans/Turkey: Suleiman leads Ottoman for 3 games continously, this time I wanna see Murad IV or if Ottomans become Turkey, Alp Arslan can lead Turkey in CIV 7.

For Brazil: As I saw previous discussion about Brazilian Leader, Pedro II is the best leader to represent Brazil however, I would like to see other leader but the problem is most of Brazilian president have controversial legacies, this makes it is difficult to choose post Pedro II leaders to represent Brazil.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Bandeirantes should be Brazilian Unique Unit. Portugal should keep something of discovery age as a ship called Nau.
Bandeirantes isn't just something related with Brazilian heritage, but also São Paulo heritage. And don't make sense Portugal to have it.

Seen Bandeirantes as Brazilian UU is understandable but have them as the Portuguese one is also pretty valid.
- By far most of the history of Bandeirantes was before any formal recognition of an independent Brazil.
- The name of Bandeirante is usually related to one region, but the existence of Portuguese exploration+slave raid was also common in Africa even despite the Portuguese already traded most of their slaves from other African peoples. We must remember that Portugal was the main slaver power.
- Other famous slave related power already had units like Jenissaries, Mamluks and Barbary Corsairs directly related to slavery.
- Eagle Warriors were elite troops supposed to take warriors for sacrifice, not regular slaves. So Bandeirantes would fit that gameplay better.
- Many Conquistadores espeacilly in their early period of Encomiendas were enslavers in practical sense. By the way with the conquest of core Mesoamerica and Andes most Conquistadores turned to be mainly born in the Americas, included native and mestizo ones. So Bandeirantes were not so specials about be native mixed or speak native languages, not to forget that also most european conquistadores never came back to Spain.

 

[krmarci]

What do you think of Konrad Adenauer as a leader for Germany?

That could work, too. I think we need a modern European leader who was in some way involved in the creation of the European Union, with bonuses/abilities towards alliances. This could be Adenauer, Kohl, or possibly someone else.

 

[Alashiya]

Alfred the great would be a great twist on English monarchs give him a science /defensive military twist with a hint of Religion