What makes a Christian a good Christian?

[Gooblah]

I know I'm interrupting debate (and I humbly apologize for this), but why is Peter a saint if he refused to recognize Jesus during the cross-bearing thing? Is it because he spread the faith? But isn't recognition of the Great Commission canceled out by one's failure to recognize Jesus in the face of Rome?

 

[Elrohir]

I know I'm interrupting debate (and I humbly apologize for this), but why is Peter a saint if he refused to recognize Jesus during the cross-bearing thing? Is it because he spread the faith? But isn't recognition of the Great Commission canceled out by one's failure to recognize Jesus in the face of Rome?

None of the apostles (Or anyone else) lived their lives perfectly. That's why Christ had to come - if we were all perfect gods, then we wouldn't need saving.

Read John 21. That's the chapter where Jesus "reinstates" Peter.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

None of the apostles (Or anyone else) lived their lives perfectly. That's why Christ had to come - if we were all perfect gods, then we wouldn't need saving.

Read John 21. That's the chapter where Jesus "reinstates" Peter.

Why would god create us if we had to work to be saved? Sounds like he is setting us up for failure and we are naturally bad.

 

[Elrohir]

Why would god create us if we had to work to be saved? Sounds like he is setting us up for failure and we are naturally bad.

I didn't say we had to "work" to be saved. You can't work hard enough to be saved, because no amount of work can save you - only Christ can.

As for why God would create us, even though He knew we would sin (I wouldn't say that He created us sinful, just with the capacity for sin) that's a good question, which lots of people differ on. To put it simply, though, I'd say it's because a universe with fallen, but then redeemed man is better than a universe free from sin, but also from God's Children. As for why that is - because there's something inherently good in God creating, or in our lives or our future existence that outweighs the bad, or something else - well, we'll just have to argue back and forth over that.

That's my take, anyway. Anyone else is free to chime in.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

I didn't say we had to "work" to be saved. You can't work hard enough to be saved, because no amount of work can save you - only Christ can.

As for why God would create us, even though He knew we would sin (I wouldn't say that He created us sinful, just with the capacity for sin) that's a good question, which lots of people differ on. To put it simply, though, I'd say it's because a universe with fallen, but then redeemed man is better than a universe free from sin, but also from God's Children. As for why that is - because there's something inherently good in God creating, or in our lives or our future existence that outweighs the bad, or something else - well, we'll just have to argue back and forth over that.

That's my take, anyway. Anyone else is free to chime in.

Well that we have to be saved at all sounds weird to me. What about those who have never heard of Christ, born before Christ and the unbaptised babies? Do they go to hell or do they get a free ticket or what?

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Well that we have to be saved at all sounds weird to me. What about those who have never heard of Christ, born before Christ and the unbaptised babies? Do they go to hell or do they get a free ticket or what?

If the people who were before Christ were good people, they go to heaven. The people who have never heard of Christ have this sitaution as well. Unbaptized babies get a "free ticket," yes.

 

[classical_hero]

Why would god create us if we had to work to be saved? Sounds like he is setting us up for failure and we are naturally bad.

We are naturally depraved only because of the fact that we disobeyed God.

 

[Elrohir]

Well that we have to be saved at all sounds weird to me.

Why does it sound weird? Do you think you've led a perfect life?

What about those who have never heard of Christ, born before Christ and the unbaptised babies? Do they go to hell or do they get a free ticket or what?

This isn't really explicitly answered anywhere. I'd argue, though, that since God loves all of His children, He wouldn't create any of them if they never had at least a chance to be with Him. As such, I think those who never heard of Christ while they lived will have a chance of some kind to do so after they die. And no, I don't think unbaptized babies go to hell - there are some who have thought that (I believe John Calvin once said that unbaptized babies went to the highest and least painful circle of hell - he was a real nice guy ) but most Christians today don't think that. I don't know of anyone I've ever met who has.

As for those born before Christ, those who were non-Jews I'd lump in with everyone who hasn't heard of Him afterwards. But I would say that the righteous Jews who lived before Christ were saved, saved by faith in the Messiah who was to come, in the same way that we are saved by faith in the Savior who has now come.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I see what El_Mac means . . . that following the Law and never sinning would get one into heaven without Christ, in theory. But in practice no one has ever done this, and realistically no one can.

 

[classical_hero]

That is impossible because we are sinners from birth.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

We are naturally depraved only because of the fact that we disobeyed God.

That is impossible because we are sinners from birth.

How so? I didn't kill my mother on the way out and it is not my fault that some guy killed another guy some unkown time ago. It is unfair to call infants sinners when they have no real control over their actions.

 

[bhsup]

We are all stained by the original sin. No getting around it and if you have a problem with that the only thing I can suggest is to take it up with God.

 

[Elrohir]

I'd say that even children seek to fulfill their own ends, regardless of morality, and that the effect (though not the guilt) of the sin of other generations does affect us through various means. But I would agree that babies themselves are not sinners yet, as they don't yet have the capacity for any sort of moral judgment.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

We are all stained by the original sin. No getting around it and if you have a problem with that the only thing I can suggest is to take it up with God.

I did.

Muslims aren't born with original sin because it isn't our fault and we don't become sinners until the age of reason.

 

[bhsup]

I did.

Muslims aren't born with original sin because it isn't our fault and we don't become sinners until the age of reason.

Yeah, but being a Muslim doesn't exactly go hand in hand with being a good Christian as per the title.

 

[El_Machinae]

I see what El_Mac means . . . that following the Law and never sinning would get one into heaven without Christ, in theory. But in practice no one has ever done this, and realistically no one can.

Well, again, you don't need to be sin-free because that's what the blood rituals were for.

The blood rituals appeased God, they pleased God, they mollified God, I think they even changed his mind. And there's nothing saying they still can't be done.

 

[El_Machinae]

I'd say that even children seek to fulfill their own ends, regardless of morality, and that the effect (though not the guilt) of the sin of other generations does affect us through various means. But I would agree that babies themselves are not sinners yet, as they don't yet have the capacity for any sort of moral judgment.

It's why I kill babies, so that they're guaranteed Heaven.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

I did.

Muslims aren't born with original sin because it isn't our fault and we don't become sinners until the age of reason.

IIRC, the Catholic Church has something similar in Limbo, where unbaptized infants are sent. You'd have to ask a Catholic about it, though, or Plotinus, since I'm hazy on the details.

 

[Red Door]

IIRC, the Catholic Church has something similar in Limbo, where unbaptized infants are sent. You'd have to ask a Catholic about it, though, or Plotinus, since I'm hazy on the details.

You're correct.

 

[El_Machinae]

I though Limbo was retconned out of existence with the new edition?