warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
A good Christian is a Christian who's buying.
What makes a Christian a good Christian?
- Thread starter LucyDuke
- Start date
Why don't people ever quote the whole passage?
Yes, Christianity is so oppressive. Mutual submission and love - what a horrendous concept!
To answer El_Mac, the impression I got (and the LDS teaching) was that blood rituals such as sacrifice were not ways of salvation in themselves but that they pointed the way to Christ.
They were symbolic of what was to come?
The blood rituals were done to appease God, though. The rituals were all laid out, and people did them out of fear (or love).
Yes, they were symbolic of something that hadn't happened yet - but they were done because God commanded them, and God knew what would happen. And of course most of the people actually performing the rituals didn't fully understand this - but it was a sign of devotion. Just not in and of itself a path to salvation.
Blame the southern baptists for having the old patriarchal family system.
I think you're just interpreting it really badly - Christian marriage isn't about "submitting to everything." It's about mutual respect, love, and devotion. Like every aspect of the true Christian walk, it's in a way a mirror image of Christ's life. It's not about getting your way or getting your due or standing on principle and refusing to budge. It's about serving and acting in a loving manner towards your spouse (Just as Christ did for the Church, and humanity).
And if you think any marriage really works without mutual submission of ones desires for another - you acknowledge that you yourself. Christianity really isn't teaching anything radical here; it's just common sense. Even in regular platonic friendships, sometimes you have to give up something you want in order to help or please another person. And you do that because you care about your friend. This is just the same thing, only deeper, because it's a deeper relationship.
People before Christ were saved by faith in the Messiah who was to come. We are saved now by faith in the Christ who has come. There's no going back to the way it was before.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
I disagree. If you saw someone who loved you so much that they di the very best for you, no doubt that you would want to submit yourself to that person because you know that under their care that you are going to be looked after. I think the problem you have is that you do not understand what love is and since you do not understand what true love is about then, you will never understand why people would willing submit to another person.
An example is that right now we are willing being submissive to Thunderfall because we are playing by his rules on this forum. We would not be hear if he made this place intolerable. While this is a not a perfect example of what a marriage relationship should be about, because Thunderfall does this since he has a passion for a game series and that is what we all share.
Veritass
Emperor
I think it's pretty vain for you to doubt the Will of the Almighty.
If this sounds arrogant to you, then, well, sorry. But I think it'd be even more arrogant for me to say, in effect, "Yeah God, I get what you're saying: Jesus is the only way to you. But that doesn't sound like a good idea to me, so I'm just going to pretend you didn't say it, m'kay?" What kind of person would I be if I ignored what I believe to be a message from Almighty God - because some guy on the internet thought it was kind of arrogant?
I believe that because faith is belief without proof, all faith is a choice. There is as much evidence that Muhammad is the one true prophet as there is that Jesus is the one true Son of God, and there are other equally valid positions as well. I am just clear that I believe what I believe because I choose to believe it.
Just another form of Pascal's Wager at the end there. You are assuming that because I think that God is too big to be limited to a single religion, that I have put Him/It in a box labeled "Too Big To Know" and put the box on a shelf. I actually do have a relationship with God and have regular religious practices; they just don't happen to be Christian-based. I choose instead to try to look beyond the forms of the religions to seek their underlying threads of truth.
In stating this as fact and not just your opinion of faith, yes, you are.
I believe that Jesus is [metaphorically] the Son of God, and so are you, and so am I.
God is the Father of us all.
So in a way, we agree.
A false dichotomy, that. I just don't believe in the whole system of focusing on sin and forgiveness and trying to get into heaven. That does not mean that I do not have a morality, it does not mean I am evil, it does not mean that I am perfect, and it does not mean that I'm obnoxious to live with.
By the way, I do happen to think that God created me perfect, whole, and complete exactly the way I am in this moment right now. As for being a joy to live with, my wife (who also happens to be a child of God) seems to think so.
Bigfoot3814
Deity
I swear there was something in The Great Gatsby that had to do with this.
Anyway, God made man in his image, so I suppose you could call yourself perfect, but that shouldn't be the case. The idea is that no one has to be perfect to recieve God's love. In other words, God loves you just the way you are. Even if you are the evilest person in the world, God loves you. God does not turn his back on you, only you can turn your back on God. That's the power of the Christian faith: They'll know we are Christians by our love.
I'm not sure I agree with that definition (Although that's a whole other debate) and I certainly don't agree that there's as much proof that Mohammad was a true prophet as that Jesus was the Son of God. If I agreed with you there, I wouldn't be a Christian.
I'm afraid I don't see any version of Pascal's Wager in what I said - just simple observation. If what I said actually doesn't apply to your life, then by all means, disregard it.
I thought it was obvious I was making a statement of belief, not stating a self-obvious demonstrable fact.
But in what sense? I believe that we are all the "children" of God, in the sense that He made us in His image, and that for us to fulfill our purpose we must "grow up" to be more like Him. But I don't think we are children of God in the same way that Christ was - I think his relationship with the Father was rather unique, and I think he serves as a model for what we should strive to be, even though we will never achieve it.
You misunderstand. The point of Christianity is not to focus on sin or death - it's to focus on the goodness and love that is God. Sin must be acknowledged and dealt with, because it interferes with our relationship with God. It is not point, or the main system of Christianity. As for you having morality, being evil, being perfect, or obnoxious to live with.....I think that depends a great deal on what you mean by those things.
So you're really saying you're perfect, and don't do anything wrong? (Or if you do, that perfection and sin can coexist in the same creature?) And haven't changed since He created you? (Or rather, that He's continually creating you?)
From our perspective, that may be the case - someone may have no basis for choosing one thing over the other. That doesn't mean all his or her potential choices are equally correct.
Veritass
Emperor
I agree with the entire paragraph up until the last sentence, which does not follow from the previous ones.
I would certainly agree that not all potential choices are equally valid. I would not even begrudge you having a belief system and a set of stories, symbols, and rituals that works for you and enhances your experience of the Divine. I only regret that [most] Christians represent it as the only way to the Divine.
[snip]
That is probably enough on this tangent. We now return to the discussion of "What makes for a good Christian?"
I again don't think it is at all absurd that Christians think theirs is the only way. Mutually contradictory claims cannot be both correct. Christians may be wrong about their way being correct, but it makes plenty of sense to say that if it is true, it is the only one that is true.
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
Right, here's the longer post I promised. Some good-intentioned reformatting of quotes has occurred. The post ended up being even longer than I expected, so I had to trim away some stuff that I spent too much time looking for references for the answers to. Maybe I'll write some more later.
And here are all three "needle" passages too, since I'm obsessive like that.
"Socialism" is a horribly loaded term that I'd hesitate to use in this discussion at all. I held a poll in OT a while back and determined that there are some people happy that they live in "socialist" countries, who think that "communism" happened in Soviet Russia somewhere, while there are other people who think that "socialism" died out and was proven wrong after murdering lots of people because it's near-identical with "communism". (And you could probably get a good third opinion out of luceafarul.)
But the commands to charity are hard to ignore. Matthew 25, as well as the ones mentioned above:
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb" -Revelations 7:9, and take into consideration that some nations and peoples and whatnot have died out before Jesus.
"For since the creation of the world [God's] invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" -Romans 1:20
"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each ones praise will come from God." -1 Corinthians 4:5 ["judge" is here used in the sense of "condemn" AFAIK]
"the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness" -Romans 3
A hundred pages of theology could probably be written on this and a hundred verses could probably be cited to give more extended and tenuous support. (I've seen one website citing Psalms a lot; risky business, that, IMO.)
Long story short, and skipping more explanation because this post is already getting painfully long, it seems to me that those who died without hearing the gospel will be judged on some very high standard of moral purity that they would have been expected to derive in an a priori-like fashion.
Of course, it may be that you don't hold my opinion on this in very high regards, but at least I can be discussed with. For an official opinion from the RCC, which is a bit harder to discuss with, but which may carry a bit more authority, see here:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
This is vague and can be fought from two ends, depending on what definition is in use. Elrohir already said "I would quite freely say that not everything in every other religion besides Christianity is wrong", and I'll add that the church I go to spends very little time that I've seen arguing with other churches over who's correct, and I'm very non-demoninational-friendly (if that's a word) myself.
See analysis and linked passages just below. The list is starting to get long now and I implied that in a few of the other points, so now I think it's getting to be a question of how long a list you want.
I'm note sure. The statement about the poor being with us always appears in Mark 14 and Matthew 26, and from what I learned, it's partly a pointer back to Deuteronomy 15:11:
Here's a link with all those chapters together for easy reference.
And here are all three "needle" passages too, since I'm obsessive like that.
"Socialism" is a horribly loaded term that I'd hesitate to use in this discussion at all. I held a poll in OT a while back and determined that there are some people happy that they live in "socialist" countries, who think that "communism" happened in Soviet Russia somewhere, while there are other people who think that "socialism" died out and was proven wrong after murdering lots of people because it's near-identical with "communism". (And you could probably get a good third opinion out of luceafarul.)
But the commands to charity are hard to ignore. Matthew 25, as well as the ones mentioned above:
But... where do I start evaluating? What are the "other good books of wisdom in the world"? I have chosen to start evaluating this from the Bible and from Jesus. How did you pick your "good examples"?
Fine.
But it's quite explicit in Christianity. See earlier post.
I don't have a source at hand, but I recall a study suggesting that religious belief was 66% heritable.
This reminds me of the tapioca God described by CS Lewis. I can't find the book right now, so I'll quote some guy's blog who's quoting the passage:
Spoiler :
On the one hand, this sounds somewhat like an appeal to consequences. On the other hand, I think there is support for the view that some who have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be saved.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb" -Revelations 7:9, and take into consideration that some nations and peoples and whatnot have died out before Jesus.
"For since the creation of the world [God's] invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" -Romans 1:20
"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each ones praise will come from God." -1 Corinthians 4:5 ["judge" is here used in the sense of "condemn" AFAIK]
"the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness" -Romans 3
A hundred pages of theology could probably be written on this and a hundred verses could probably be cited to give more extended and tenuous support. (I've seen one website citing Psalms a lot; risky business, that, IMO.)
Long story short, and skipping more explanation because this post is already getting painfully long, it seems to me that those who died without hearing the gospel will be judged on some very high standard of moral purity that they would have been expected to derive in an a priori-like fashion.
Of course, it may be that you don't hold my opinion on this in very high regards, but at least I can be discussed with. For an official opinion from the RCC, which is a bit harder to discuss with, but which may carry a bit more authority, see here:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
No, I don't see it, but that's because I'm in a historical context where the whole "billions of worlds" thing has been used against Christianity quite inconsistently, both to say that there must be lots of other intelligent life and there's nothing unique about Earth, or that this world is special in being the only planet with life in the Universe, and either way it was an argument against Christianity. I think there's at least one instance of this explained in C.S. Lewis' "Religion and Rocketry".
We should try. But... we'll fall horribly short, we'll be sinful, and we shouldn't expect or demand more than the occasional "whisper" from the Divine. The Burning Bush and the pentecostal tongues of fire on the disciples are little "droplets" from God, who can profitably be thought of for the moment as an all-consuming flame. (References; and mind the tapioca) Before we have been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, whose death and resurrection we are baptised to, to go too near God is to be burnt, like staring into the sun.
Veritass
Emperor
And may I acknowledge you and the others in this thread for an interesting, open, and well-reasoned discussion.
I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do enjoy the search for them.The same way you pick them now. What are the books that either a lot of people -- or some number of well-respected people -- believe contain useful wisdom? I happen to be a fan of the Sufi poet Rumi, Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet, the collected Sufi stories of Idries Shah, the collected mythologies of Joseph Campbell, and Richard Bach's Illusions. There are always the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, The Tao of Pooh, and Deepak Chopra, depending on your tastes.
I would certainly agree, and these symbols are planted young and deep. When people have crises of faith and re-choose religion, they almost always re-choose the symbols and faith they were brought up with. I have not considered myself a Christian for at least 35 years (if ever, really), but I still am moved by some Christian music from my childhood.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Faith is believing in things whether you have seen the proof or not. Many people had faith in Jesus while they saw him alive on the earth, but they still had faith.
Veritass
Emperor
A parable:
There was a greeter at the gates of a great city, who would interview people who wanted to move to the city.
A man approached and asked to move to the city, and the greeter said, "Tell me about the people from the last city you lived in."
The first man replied, "They were generally wicked and mean; they competed ruthlessly with one another and never helped their fellow men."
The greeter said, "You should not live here, for you will find the people here to be just like those people."
A second man approached and was asked the same question. The second man replied, "In the town where I came from, the people were selfish and rude, and cared not a whit for the people around them."
The greeter said, "You should continue on your journey, for if you stayed, you would find the people here to be just like those people."
A third man approached and petitioned for residency and got the same query. The third man responded, "Where I come from, the people are extremely friendly and generous; they are humble and do not presume to know what is right for anyone, but they quietly help out however they can."
The greeter said, "Come and stay with us, for you will surely find that the people here are just like those people."
============================
Just in this world, you can find plenty of evidence that the world is a beautiful and loving place, and you can find plenty of evidence that the it is a ghastly and miserable existence. You can find plenty of evidence that people are just and kind and loving, and plenty of evidence that people are obnoxious, selfish, and greedy. You can find plenty of evidence that Jesus in the Son of God, and even feel his presence, and you can find plenty of evidence that Devil is all around us, and you can find plenty of evidence that God is an impersonal Law of the universe, and plenty of evidence that there could not possibly be a God.
Within this, we each choose what we have faith in. I personally choose to believe that:
- Every bit of matter, energy, and thought, and even the fabric of space-time itself, is created by a God that is both a universal Law that makes the universe work, and an infinite Grace that makes it work in harmony.
- I am a being of matter, energy, and thought, created by God in the perfect place and time.
- God is within me and God's grace and peace and joy is available to me in infinite supply.
- The full nature of God is ineffable to us, but is most closely approximated in the verities of Light, Life, Love, Peace, Joy, Truth, and Beauty.
- My life is blessed to the level that I align my life with these verities.
These are not scientific realities. I would not even go so far as to say they are the "truth" about God. I cannot prove them to you in any rational or scientific way, and would never try to convince you they are the right way to believe. I may be completely delusional in holding these beliefs. I may find out when I die that I was right, or I may just be worm food.
I do know that the world at least seems to respond in kind to how you think of it. My life is blessed because I choose to believe that it is blessed, and that is why my sig is...
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