[BTS] What should I do with espionage and its slider? (I just leave it at 10% atm)

[Simon Appleton]

I don't have much idea what to do with espionage in CivIV. I read one guide that said something like "if you don't want to worry about espionage, just put the slider 10% and leave it". That's pretty much all I do. Espionage in CivIV never seemed powerful (or comprehensible!) to me, so I just neglected it to focus on all the other stuff.

First off - what's the benefit of putting espionage at 10% if I am not going to use it? I do it fairly religiously but am not sure what I am getting for my 10%. 10% sounds like quite a lot. (Early game, I'm on a knife edge of going bust. Later, I'm in various tech races. I only seem to have commerce - and espionage point generating buildings - late game). What do I get for that investment? I like seeing the tech AIs are investing in, but I wouldn't pay 10% for it. I understand there is a defensive benefit for counter-espionage. Again, nice but not sure it is worth 10%. Poisoned water and sabotage are generally not that much of a problem to endure; stolen tech is annoying but if I am ahead on tech anyway, I'm not that concerned about the backwards thieves.

Second, how should I use espionage more actively? I've read about using groups of spies to cause revolts in AI cities to get rid of the cultural defenses without siege (for cavalry rushes). What other uses are worthwhile?

For a long time I struggled to understand the espionage screen (I use BUG mod, not sure if it is the same without a mod) and still don't have a sure grasp. I think I now understand the left side is the stock of (unused?) points I have allocated into espionage against each civ and the flow of points per turn. And if my stock is close to or exceeds their's, I can see their research. I tinker with the weights on civs, so as not put too many points into civs that are very much behind me in espionage..And the right side of the screen is the espionage cost of various active espionage missions. Does expending espionage points on missions mean my stock of espionage points against a civilization falls (maknig it harder to see their research)? The mission costs seem rather high. I'm not really getting it.

Thanks for any pointers.

 

[elitetroops]

Espionage slider at 10% is probably the worst thing you can do. Slider at 0% is the right thing to do almost always, especially if you don't have any plan to spend those points. Espionage can be very powerful, but it is mostly only really useful on the hardest difficulties where AI techs very quickly. On lower levels it can be used for revolts, but investing commerce into that when you instead could use the commerce to get a tech lead is a bit dubious.

What you should do is assign your espionage points to only one civ. With no specific plans to spend the points, just put them on the strongest techer to see what they are researching so that you know to research something else and later trade for their tech. Later on you can maybe use those points to steal a tech or for some revolts if you go to war against them. When you kill a civ all points are lost, so spending the remains on revolts can never be that much of a waste.

Costs are high, but there's a lot of modifiers to bring them down. Easiest to manipulate is to have you spy stationary in target city for 5 turns before performing the mission. The other have to do with things like religion and distance to your capital, which often is quite constant. The high level play is to build a city yourself and set it up with the perfect espionage discounts, then gift it to the AI to perform your tech stealing missions in there. Otherwise you should check the cost in all their cities for stealing techs. It can be significantly cheaper in some than in others.

 

[Pangaea]

Does expending espionage points on missions mean my stock of espionage points against a civilization falls (maknig it harder to see their research)? The mission costs seem rather high. I'm not really getting it.

Yes. If you for example do something expensive, like stealing a tech, you may lose almost all EPs you have built up on that AI, so you may lose both military ratio and tech view. Perhaps that is worth it, perhaps not.

As elitetroops adviced, it's better to always run the slider at 0%. There may be some cases where you want to run it, at least a little for a turn or two, but generally it's best to simply keep it at 0%, and then either research at 100% or 0% (depending on if you have enough gold to fully research the chosen tech).

 

[6K Man]

0% unless you have a very specific reason to do otherwise.

 

[coanda]

If you aren't trying to run an espionage-based economy (which is definitely viable, but also pretty complicated), set espionage to 0. If you've just discovered a key military tech and will be attacking someone in a handful of turns, feel free to park a couple spies in enemy cities and turn your espionage slider way up during that time period to get a couple revolts in those cities.

 

[6K Man]

The interesting thing with espionage is that it detracts from conventional research when you run the espionage slider up, and that AIs will tend to try to match you if you devote a lot of espionage to them. So, indirectly, you can sometimes slow down AI research by putting a lot of espionage points on them. This can sometimes make sense if you have a big tech lead and want to keep it.

For a long time I struggled to understand the espionage screen (I use BUG mod, not sure if it is the same without a mod) and still don't have a sure grasp. I think I now understand the left side is the stock of (unused?) points I have allocated into espionage against each civ and the flow of points per turn.

Yes

And if my stock is close to or exceeds their's, I can see their research.

Very likely, but check the right side of the screen under the passive mission "See Research". That will tell you how much espionage you need to see their Research. Other passive missions give you even better intel - like seeing inside their cities, even.

I tinker with the weights on civs, so as not put too many points into civs that are very much behind me in espionage.

Not a great idea usually. You won't get a lot of advantage on any one AI that way, unless you are running the espionage slider past 0%, generating and settling Great Spies/Scotland Yard, or building a lot of Courthouses/Jails/etc. None of which are efficient ways to play. Better, as elitetroops says, to focus on one AI that you can then steal from, make their cities revolt pre-attack, and so on.

And the right side of the screen is the espionage cost of various active espionage missions.

Active and passive missions. Passive missions are things like seeing Research or seeing inside cities - they don't cost points. Active missions are those which require a Spy in the target city, have a chance of failure, and expend accumulated espionage points - things like poisoning water, inciting revolts, stealing money or techs, etc.

Does expending espionage points on missions mean my stock of espionage points against a civilization falls (maknig it harder to see their research)? The mission costs seem rather high. I'm not really getting it.

Yes, for active missions. Passive missions don't cost you points.

 

[Simon Appleton]

Thanks for the quick replies. It seems I am now 10% richer for your advice. And quite a bit wiser.