What should we do if Hiawatha declares war?

[donsig]

The soothsayers have said the Iroquois will declare war on us soon. If that happens, what kind of war should we fight?

We should imitate the Chinese and wipe out the Iroquois.

Other (please list your war goals)

We should defend ourselves but not take any Iroquoian territory.

Abstain

My intent is to make this a private poll. Haven't posted a poll in a while though so I don't know what I'll really end up with!

 

[MOTH]

hmm, no poll yet. What about a third choice? I would go with other, but I don't have my specific war goals. More or less, I want to weaken the Iroq's but I don't see a need to wipe them out. I would like to see the Iroq's reduced to 3-5 cities and then we make peace.

 

[Provolution]

We already do ghave doctrinal polls in place, and that was what I went to MSAV election for.

 

[Crimso]

Don't conquer them whole, but definitly get the majority of their 'good' cities. Salamanca is the prime target. (we'll get the wonders and stop a possible 20K loss).

 

[Provolution]

Again, the Doctrinal Polls has spoken, people want to conquer Maung Chunk and the three former Roman Cities. After the conquest of these cities, we will repoll what other cities should be conquered.

 

[Ashburnham]

Provolution is right. He's already gathered the people's opinion on this matter in this poll.

 

[Civanator]

The MSAV recognizes this poll invalid and renders it null and void.

 

[blackheart]

Why can't there be 2 polls about this subject? Donsig has no power over military movement and battles anyways.

I voted other, I only want to cap Mauch Chunk.

 

[Provolution]

WE polled a new system of doctrines so people could agree ahead of the wars, not to make ad hoc decisions sprawling in all directions. By the way Blackheart, it seems it has been a long time since we agreed on anything.

 

[Epimethius]

Take Mauch Chuck. That is all.

 

[donsig]

Why can't there be 2 polls about this subject? Donsig has no power over military movement and battles anyways.

There can be two polls or three polls or any number of polls. We established every citizen's right to post polls long before DGV started. We've also accepted long ago that the people are free to change their minds. We also established procedures long ago for taking leaders to task for ignoring the WotP.

While I have no direct authority over military movement and battles my power over them is tha same as any other citizen's. It is up to us citizen's to decide and that why we post polls. We learned long ago that we should not lock ourselves into the results of a poll once an for all for attitudes and circumstances change. Because they do we have a tradition that newer polls (in general) outweight older polls. Rather than arguing over whether this poll should exist or not we should be discussing our goals should war come. If the people truly still want the same as in the Doctrinal Polls then they will vote that way in this poll.

Despite the Doctrinal poll there was also a poll wherein the people came out against war. That right there says something about what our war goals should be. The people decided not to conquer. A natural extension of that attitude is that if attacked we really only want to defend ourselves - we don't want to conquer Iroquoia. I agree with that attitude. I feel we should concentrate on building our industrial strength to the point where we can enforce the existing balance of power. Forestalling the building of our second capital (which is only one turn away) is not worth war and without relocating our potential new second capital the war is not worth much.

I voted for a defensive only war.

 

[Provolution]

WE cannot have a situation where people just poll a new poll a few hours after I posted a ministerial poll just to have them nullified. Then we would have an untenable situation where citizens can hijack the ministerial privilege of posting official polls. Informal polls are ok as long as they are informal. I am not letting the doctrinal system fall, a system I went on to election for, just to have it nullified by a minority group that hijacks that system with two-three choice private polls. I also geared the doctrinal polls to fit in with the length of the turnchats, as well as linking that to the military organization in general. I find it wasteful to combat this by trying to coup this process in overlapping polls. Therefore, I will listen to the outcomes of official polls posted between turnchats, and may add or reduce some new options as time goes by.
The Doctrine is a platform, not a lasting law, that is reviewed and repolled as the situation develops. However, I can see some opposition to this, but you got to live with that for this Term at least. I see that Chieftess want an all out conquest where
Donsig do not want the doctrinal system, so I have two seniority "veterans" combating this system from the outset. Well, the doctrinal system has come to staty for this term at least, and I hope people will be more constructive than destructive in making this happen. However, I see some players spend more energy in nullyfing reforms than to do some creative thinking on how to involve more people in creative planning.

 

[donsig]

WE cannot have a situation where people just poll a new poll a few hours after I posted a ministerial poll just to have them nullified. Then we would have an untenable situation where citizens can hijack the ministerial privilege of posting official polls.

Let me rephrase what I said earlier in the hopes of making my point clearer. If the *official* poll truly represents the will of the people then any subsequent polls (irregardless of who posts them) will agree with the *official* poll and the leader in question will have an even clearer understanding of what it is the people want.

If, on the other hand, a subsequent poll disagreees with the *official* poll then the leader should step back and examine what is happening. Have the people changed their minds? Is one of the polls flawed somehow? It behooves us all to elect leaders who approach this sort of thing with an open mind. Leaders who will truly try to find out what the people want rather than post *official* polls to try to steer the flock in the direction the leader wants to go.

I would like to remind Provolution and everyone else that whatever privileges ministers hold they hold because the people gave them the privileges. Ministers are beholden to the people not the other way around.

 

[Provolution]

The Will of the People should not a carte Blanche Term used at whim in order to discard presented policies with a different structure from a few indivduals in order to nullify the work put in by ministries. I beleive in following the WOTP, but WOTP needs a base policy that can be altered from TC to TC. I am AGAINST so-called People initiatives that are mere attempts to undermine attempts done in the recent reform package, which will be sent for a ratification approval in next term. I have also seen no inputs from you Donsig in the military planning that works within the parameters of these new doctrines. You seem bent on 2-3 choice private polls where you limit the scope of options people can choose in, where my polls are public polls are open and flexible. We think different, but MSAV is already organized as it should be, and we stick by our polls.

 

[invy]

We have only extreme options here: no war and wipe them out! Where is option to get few cities and leave them alive? I guess that means 'other'.

 

[Provolution]

Exactly Invy, Presidential candidate Donsig tried to disrupt our doctrinal system with a short cut poll a few hours later to hijack this doctrinal military reform.

 

[blackheart]

WE polled a new system of doctrines so people could agree ahead of the wars, not to make ad hoc decisions sprawling in all directions. By the way Blackheart, it seems it has been a long time since we agreed on anything.

And?.... Do we really need to all agree on the same thing? I have my way of thinking and you have yours.

I really do not see any problems to have secondary polls to reinforce the first polls, although as MOTH pointed out, these options are extreme.

 

[Provolution]

Well, the other poll did the work, and "Other" was more specified, but you seem bent on blocking the doctrinal system Blackheart, and subsitute that for the old and colorless 2-3 option system with private polls. MSAV is very close to the way SD3 ran city localization polls, and it is actually a complete system.

 

[blackheart]

Provo, take a deep breath, calm down, and slow down. I nor anyone else for that matter is attempting to undermine your power. The people are given more choices and options, there is no coup de'tat here.

 

[Provolution]

Well, a new poll seeking to override the previous ones (pural) will not be accepted. I got enough experience to see what is cooking up here.