[BTS] What to do after an impulsive attack

[konata_LS]

Hello, everyone

In a current off-line game, I did something really impulsive - or unexpected - and consequently don't know what I should do next (<--a little embarrassed about that ). So I post some screenshots below and would like to listen to your advice.

Settings as below:

Spoiler :

There are only 3 AIs in the screenshot at the moment, because I haven't met the three other ones yet.


The leader I chose to play was Willem, because I really want to master the Monarch level without relying on some powerful early UUs like Incan Quechuas or Persian Immortals. Willem's UUs and UBs come quite late, his traits and starting techs are both strong for someone who just moved up in difficulty.

What happened in the previous turns:

Spoiler :

At the beginning of the game, I planned the peaceful expansion, but everything became unexpected from T42: Hannibal settled his second city Ultica only 3 tiles from my capital, which made me burst with anger .
Overwhelmed by an irresistible impulse, I went straight to BW, HBR and Archery, whipped/chopped 10+ HAs . A chariot at NE of Hanni's border, ready to capture his workers after DoW :


Several turns later, when I calmed down a little , eh, the situation was already like this :
Hanni is willing to give Calendar for peace, but I'm not sure if I shoud accept it or not, because Hanni only has 1 city now. It's quicker to eliminate him in the next 1 or 2 turns .


My capital is a real shame on T96. I didn't even build the CRE library. There is zero early happiness resource, which makes thing worse. All my cities and small and unhappy (from whipping angers).


The land on T96 is like this, as you see, all the happiness resources nearby are Calendar resources:


Tech situations on T96:

So, my questions are:

• Should I accept Hannibal's peace offer and finish him off 10 turns later, or should I just wipe him out immediately? Calendar is very tempting, especially with FIN dyes and riverside spices.
  But I already suffer -1 diplomacy penalty with HC when I declared on Hanni. If I redeclared 10 turns later, HC would drop to Annoyed. I don't want to irritate HC too much, at least for now.

Spoiler :

• Should I open border with HC? I didn't open border with HC, because HC is WE of Lincoln. But I think I should consider the traderoutes with HC and make him spread his religion to me, though Lincoln may become unhappy about that. Besides, I need to contact the rest of AIs.
• There is no Ivory nearby, so Elepults is not an option. Do you think that Cuirs or Cannons are still possible in the current situation? Or it's better to abandon this game and start a new one?
  If you were in a similar situation, would you choose Cuirs or Cannons and why?

Thanks

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

Looks like you're in a fine position, lots of options.

Whichever route you take, I strongly recommend you don't quit. It is very tempting to play civ aiming for perfect synergy ("Why go for catapults if I don't get elephants?"), and that can make normal losses incredibly frustrating. Part of what can be difficult about moving up difficulties is that before, you might have always been 1 or more tech generations ahead, so a slight edge or parity can feel awkward when it happens.

Coming back from behind is a key element of Civ, so quitting when you face difficulty won't help you overcome that hump.

Good luck!

 

[krikav]

The situation is abit awkward, having such small cities at T92 tells the story of alot of small decisions that could probably been improved upon earlier.
The only thing I can almost certainly say from the limited info provided is that you have too few workers and you chop too little.
But as it is now, things are looking kind of good anyway!

I would for sure take calendar for peace. Calendar unlocks so many nice tiles and resources for you right now.
If you are worried about Capac, why not give him Calendar also? Or perhaps send a gift settler to keep him pleased.
In any case, monarchy should likely be prioritized, and once you got that make sure he gets it too, he looooves you if you go into HR.

I would pivot sharply from warfare to economy and development here. Chop/Whip out workers to about 12, then clearcut everything and cottage/farm.
Screenshot is abit fuzzy, but it looks like there is room for 3 good cities up in the northeast, and perhaps a pair toward the other AIs too...?

Depending on how large the army is, perhaps do some opportunistic warfare against Lincoln too, but if the army is too small, just keep them around for military police.

 

[krikav]

Oh, and Kudos for waging war like a rabid dog. Warfare is more or less the only element that the human has a huuuge advantage over the AIs. So the more you fight and the more experience you get on that arena, the easier it will be to improve.

 

[lymond]

Yeah, I'd totally take the Calendar deal. Who cares what HC thinks if you attack later......and maybe you don't. (I don't see what Hanny has left with).

You may not have managed everything properly...I don't know...but you certainly made the right move knocking out those Carthaginians.

Calendar and dyes or whatever are going to help you a lot.

You really should have that library in Dam some time ago and running scientists. Chopping, as krik said, would've probably allowed you to do more with less there.

It appears that you do not play with the BUG mod.

 

[pigswill]

As above take Calendar, wipe him out after 10 turns. Open borders with HC now, he won't agree to OB if he's annoyed but if you've got OB beforehand he probably won't cancel.

I would go for Currency but krikav suggests Monarchy (and he/she's much smarter than I am). If HC doesn't have it beforehand you can always gift him Monarchy for diplo bonus for sharing discoveries and another diplo bonus for favourite civic. HR also converts your remaining HAs into happy citizens.

 

[konata_LS]

Wow a lot of helpful advice! Thank you all !
I'll take Calendar from Hanni and finish him off 10 turns later. After that I'll focus on research and economy for a while. Maybe some dogpile wars in Medieval era, if the situations call for them.

@NothingBesideRemains

Spoiler :

You're right about what people feel when moving up in difficulties. Escaping from challenges is certainly not a good way of improving playing skills. I'll follow your advice, keep playing this game, and try to find solutions.

@krikav

Spoiler :

It's such a shame that so many forests stay unchopped.
Your observation about the land is right: it looks like Hanni and I are at the corner of the Pangaea map, and there is a small peninsula NE. Capac is at the centre of the map, so if I want to meet other AIs, I must open borders with Incans.
As you suggested, chopping workers/settlers/Library would be the priority. After that, maybe put some chopping into failgold, as there is a Marble nearby.
Your suggestion of gifting techs or cities to HC looks like an efficient way to improve diplomatic situation.

@lymond

Spoiler :

It seems my early game was terrible... even myself don't understand why my capital has no library on T96.
About Bug mod, I saw in some threads people looked for help and uploaded their save, but others could not open it because they played with different mods or different versions of a mod. So I think if I play without mod (except Blue Marble), everyone should be able to open my saves.

@pigswill

Spoiler :

Very good point about open border with HC before he drops to Annoyed. If he send Buddhist missionaries to my cities, shared religions + HR would keep him at Cautious or even raise him to pleased.
In terms of techs, both Currency and Monarchy look like potentially good choice. Maybe further decisions will be made after I open border with HC and meet the three other AIs. If I can get Monarchy through trade, that would be even better.

 

[lymond]

@konata_LS There are two ways to install BUG (and BULL). One is standalone and the other is in Custom Assets. Installing in custom assets requires no loading of mod, and games generated in this method can be opened without the mod. If one plays with a different mod that is of no matter. They can always open the game without a mod.

Most here play with some form of BUG/BULL active. (I never play without) Whether it's BUFFY, BAT, or BUG/BULL, anyone can still open a save created if BUG/BULL was in custom assets. IMO you only hurt yourself by not enjoying the benefits of the mod.

 

[krikav]

I recommend buffy5 which looks more and more like it's the norm these days.
I have two shortcuts to civ on my desktop, one I normally use with buffy5, and one without mods that I start whenever someone uploads a save to the forums that I want to take a look at.
If someone uploads a save with a standalone bug/bull then tough luck, can't open that one.
Bat I have too but don't use it much, just have it to be able to open some of @drewisfat saves

@pigswill
Both currency and monarchy are needed, currency is even more awesome on difficulties where you have time to sell the AIs alot of the small stuff like poly/medi/priesthood etc.

 

[sampsa]

@konata_LS I think the HA-attack on Hannibal is a very good play. However, as already pointed out, you should pretty much have no forest left when you attack, thus you didn't have enough workers chopping, thus you probably don't have enough workers. Your situation is very bad for whipping (no ) so you might've even considered building no granaries before the attack, it's a drain of 60 anyway. I would've taken the -situation into account when choosing a tech path, probably valuing monarchy higher than alpha (unless someone has monarchy) and definitely way higher than currency, which is a tech that let's your tech rate explode assuming you have an empire with strong cities already.

 

[Qactus]

I agree that Monarchy would've been a good play, but I'd advise against switching to it now that you have access to no less than four (!) Calendar ressources.
Getting those plantations up should be the top priority. Depending on where your workers are located you can group them in order to finish the first one or two plantations more quickly.

Also, not meeting the remaining three civs on a Pangaea is hurting you, so open borders with Inca asap and send a couple of units over there (ideally sentry if you happen to have one).
Apart from missing ressource trades (who knows, maybe gold, silver, furs etc. was available for trade all along?) you should be very interested in their tech progress: So far, all three AIs lack Priesthood, so if that's the case for the other three AI as well, you could still go for a quick Oracle, even targeting something as ambitious as Civil Service via CoL, monitoring the tech screen each turn.

Oh, and from the Minimap it seems Hannibal's last city is located on the plains hill orphaning the fish. If that is true I'd definitely raze and resettle that one.

 

[drewisfat]

Bat I have too but don't use it much, just have it to be able to open some of @drewisfat saves

Hey, I only use BAT to earn brownie points with @Fippy

 

[konata_LS]

@lymond

Spoiler :

"Custom assets" - did you mean the first option (red circle), in the image below?

Spoiler :

Glad to know that saves created with custom assets can be opened by most people. I downloaded Bug mod soon after I discovered this forum but haven't installed it, just because I worry if others would be able to open my saves. It's frustrating when one chooses a map, uploads T0 save, discusses the settling place, waits for others' feedback and shadows but ends up being told that others can't open the save .

@krikav

Spoiler :

What factors/advantages made you prefer Buffy over other mods? To be honest, I've never heard of Buffy .

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Very helpful advice as always. Especially your perception about happiness resources and whipping. I was blinded by the urge of beating Hanni up, then forgot such low happiness cap was not suitable for whipping. Before Dow on Hanni, I only had 3 workers and once again sent my workers to build unnecessary roads . One or two extra workers would have chopped more.

@Qactus

Spoiler :

Wow yours predictions about the trades with some unknown AIs are really accurate! I met Cathy through HC's land, she has extra furs to trade but she doesn't want my cows. When the dyes get improved, I'll give her dyes for fur. I also got Monarchy from her. As you said, meeting the remaining AIs too late makes me miss some nice deals.
I'll follow your advice, eliminate Hanni 10 turns later and resettle that city spot.
The only regret is Oracle was build in 625BC, even before I declared on Hanni. It seems there are some mysterious wonder-spammers at the other side of the world . But in this case, finding the remaining AIs becomes even more important, as a wonder-spamming AI usually is ahead in tech and may offer something interesting in trade.

Spoiler wonders in 575BC :

Small update about my game:

Spoiler :

Took Calendar from Hanni. Open borders with HC and sent a chariot to find other AIs. Sent workers to improve capital's dyes and chop library. Chopped settlers to backfill the peninsula NE.

Only 2 turns later, met Cathy who founded Confu. She was already at wars with Nappy. Traded HBR to Cathy and got Monarchy from her. Things look much better now.

Many thanks

 

[lymond]

@konata_LS Yes. Install it there. Download BULL (zip file) and copy the files to custom assets as instructed in the included txt. Copy the BULL DLL to the main Assets folder as instructed, but make a copy of the original dll or just add an extension to disable it like ..original. (think of BULL as plug-in
enhancement to BUG) Once installed you can continue your current game now with BUGgy goodness.

 

[krikav]

@konata_LS
Main thing that tilted me to Buffy5 is that it's required to play game of the month (BOTM).
Would be super fun to have more people playing those (they come two a month these days!)

Bug/Bull in cusom assets has most of the UI goodies, but I think you have to config it somehow to get sentry-heal and to have your workers ask before finishing chops. Two things I like in buffy.
But start with Bug and take it from there, playing the game with vanilla UI is abit like trying to fly a jetplane with a blanket over all the instruments.

 

[konata_LS]

@lymond

Spoiler :

As you instructed, I installed Bug mod in CustomAssets and started BTS. But all the icons (resources, scoreboard, city screen...) disappeared:

Spoiler :

After some research, I realised someone else encountered the same problem as I did. I tried the solution offered by the nice lady in #8 of this thread, removed the special characters in my computer user name, signed out and restarted my computer. But it didn't work. Maybe because my computer's operating system is not in English, and it's full of special characters like "é" "à" "è" so the Bug mod can't see them. What a regret.
But still, thank you for your time and patience of recommending a well-known mod and teaching me the installation process .

@krikav

Spoiler :

The reminder before workers finishing chops is indeed nice. Sometimes people pre-chop the forest but forget to cancel it (eh, this already happened to me a few times).
Unfortunately, the mod doesn't work in my computer. So I can't play BOTM with others. But NC series and some maps shared by forum members are already fun enough.
After all, the good thing is the saves created with unmodded BTS can surely be opened by everyone, so if one day I started a shadow game, many people would be able to check my save and participate in discussion.

 

[konata_LS]

Update to my game:

Spoiler :

Everything went well after Monarchy, Calendar and Currency. FIN cottages and half-price libraries led to a smooth and quick post-war recovery. Peacefully built 4 extra cities and had 10+ cities before Renaissance era. Managed to get HC to friendly via HR + shared religion + giving tribute, and got some monoply techs from him.

Attack with Cuirs/Cavs. HC is a nice neighbour: he often built some shiny wonders and shrine for the human player. Even a grocer was ready :


Nappy was one of the most stubborn AIs. After losing his capital and several core cities, 3 cities Nappy still said "we're doing fine on our own" . He finally capitulated 1 turn later, after losing another city.


Willem is really a strong leader: none of AIs had Rifling. They even didn't have Replaceable Parts.


Domination on T238:

Some of you may ask: why some cities built CH and university at the end of the game? The answer is, eh... towards the end of the game, I got tired of managing many cities one by one, so I set some cities to Production Automation .

Wholehearted thanks for those who gave advice and criticisms in this thread

If I hadn't posted this thread, I would have missed an important tech from a peace deal(Calendar), Monarchy and other resources trading with Cathy, and would have lost a decent trading partner (Capac). My tech rate in Medieval era would have been much worse due to small cities.

Some afterthought:
For people like me who are still learning the game, if things not going well or not sure what to do, it's better to look for advice in 500BC than in 500AD. A tough situation in 500 AD or 1500AD is often due to a wrong decision around 500BC or earlier.
So, when looking for advice about a specific game, the earlier the better.

 

[lymond]

@lymond
As you instructed, I installed Bug mod in CustomAssets and started BTS. But all the icons (resources, scoreboard, city screen...) disappeared:

First off, I don't know anything about that fix you mentioned. I've never heard of it and not sure if it was applicable to your situation. (I'm not sure about what steps you took based on that advice, but I'd probably not mess with something like that until consulting with others...though your initiative is respected. Lemon is indeed a nice lady.)

There's two things that come to mind here. First, the hotkey ALT+I will deactivate/activate the UI. Maybe for some reason it was deactivated by accident. More likely, after installing BUG in Custom Assets, you had some sort of mod conflict which is the only other explanation that I can think of. Are you running any kind of mod presently. (Blue Marble would not be an issue)

Note on Custom Assets in general. That folder is basically disposable. What I mean by that is you can absolutely delete it with no problem at all...or rename it. Game simply will create a fresh CA folder next time you run the game. I actually have copies of my CA folder with different configurations. Note that some Blue Marble assets are installed into CA as well, so when deleted you lose BM features. But point is that you can create a BUG version of CA, install BM as well, and then save it off. Create new CA folder, install BM and save that off. Now you have a BUG and Vanilla copy of CA (with BM) that you can switch back and forth simply by renaming. (edit: one thought is..in case for some reason your CA folder is jacked up..is to simply delete it > run game/exit > then reinstall BUG and BM fresh)

Also, note to you and @krikav. Having BUG installed in CA does not conflict with BUFFY or BAT if you are running it..they are like assets. I mostly have my BUG CA always active, and I primarily actually play with BAT or BUFFY mod...primarily BAT which is fantastic. (BUFFY and BAT are basically similar ...full BUG/BULL [+optional BULL components - that actually require compiling otherwise] + either HOF MOD or Graphical Mods respectively)

BUG in custom assets, however, may indeed conflict with other standalone mods you may be running

There really should be no other reason than the ones noted above for BUG not to work properly. Only other thought would be that player has some how jacked around with their game assets for some reason, but I'm assuming that is not the case.

(By the way, the gold BM UI is nice but in case you are not aware you can change the color of your UI via BM. You run the installer and their is a separate tab and separate sorta install, i.e., you don't have to run the graphical install again. You can create custom colors as well.) this is my UI as an example..it's a custom color:

Spoiler ui :

you can also seem some bug features there (buffy is running)

 

[lymond]

... the earlier the better.

actually one of the most important concepts of this game

 

[konata_LS]

@lymond

Spoiler :

There is no other mods in my BTS except Blue Marble. I tried the hotkey Alt+I but it didn't work. Deleting CustomAssets, ran the game and exited, reinstalled Bug, the icons and city screens did not appear. I also unistalled Bug and Blue Marble, uninstalled BTS and reinstalled everything. But the result is always the same. The picture below shows the city screen in a game started under BUG mod: unit list, city production display, food bar, and others things all disappeared.

After spending the whole day looking for solutions, I decided to give up and move on.
Thanks again for your time and patience . That's very kind of you.

Wow I only knew fonts can be changed with Blue Marble, but I didn't know the UI colors can be customized in BM as well. Thanks for telling me that!