Just started an emperor game on fractal, got an OK start with decent amount of food with no riverside. Leader is Capac so I'm inclined to cottage it(financial), and I've only got 2 hills(both plains) which doesn't really make it a good hammer city until workshops are viable. I could also do a mix, but needless to say I'm a bit stuck. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
[BTS] What to do with this Capital? (farm or cottage)
- Thread starter frippy72
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IMO ..neither... although financial, this is not a very ideal Bureau cap. However, you don't have to make a decision really for quite a bit. But if you really want a Bureau cap you might look for another option. GLH usually works quite well on Fractal, and it appears you already have a couple of coastal spots present including one directly 3 tiles W of Cuzco.
GLH will go a long way for your commerce needs, so I'd probably not worry about tile improvements much at all with this city - other than the mines. (too bad you settled on hill). Corn will need one farm for irrigation. City could make decent GP farm or even production city later with workshops.
So really, all I see you need here to work is corn, 2 clams, 2 mines, and a lake (w/LH), and probably one farm, but city is likely going to be focused on running scientists at some point early at least...and/or whipping. So extended improvements not much of a thought at this point.
You only have, I think, 7 non-river grass tiles to cottage if you went that route..so not exactly great there...but it could be an option. With GLH trade routes, 7 cottages (1 tile needs farm regardless), later FIN coastal tiles (maybe add colossus) and even throw in Maoi for measure. It could have some bang for buck there. But likely not what I do if I found better options or lacked options for other things.
Ofc, decision probably comes down as well to what you want to do with the game.
GLH will go a long way for your commerce needs, so I'd probably not worry about tile improvements much at all with this city - other than the mines. (too bad you settled on hill). Corn will need one farm for irrigation. City could make decent GP farm or even production city later with workshops.
So really, all I see you need here to work is corn, 2 clams, 2 mines, and a lake (w/LH), and probably one farm, but city is likely going to be focused on running scientists at some point early at least...and/or whipping. So extended improvements not much of a thought at this point.
You only have, I think, 7 non-river grass tiles to cottage if you went that route..so not exactly great there...but it could be an option. With GLH trade routes, 7 cottages (1 tile needs farm regardless), later FIN coastal tiles (maybe add colossus) and even throw in Maoi for measure. It could have some bang for buck there. But likely not what I do if I found better options or lacked options for other things.
Ofc, decision probably comes down as well to what you want to do with the game.
Thanks for the feedback, your points make a lot of sense in the context of the game.
Do you think moving the palace would be a good move around CS to somewhere better suited to using Bureaucracy?(with some FP or plenty of riverside etc.)
Also good point about settling on the hill, tbh I didn't even see it until after I'd settled...
Where do you think would be a good spot to move to? I didn't have a chance to see the corn due to placement of the qeucha, and I thought 1N was possibly horse or something. 1S could have been decent, I lose the plains hill to the north but gain a better grassland one. Anywhere else though and I lose a seafood. I'm usually too scared to move my settler unless I see somewhere obviously better lol, need to get out of the habit of always SIP.
Do you think moving the palace would be a good move around CS to somewhere better suited to using Bureaucracy?(with some FP or plenty of riverside etc.)
Also good point about settling on the hill, tbh I didn't even see it until after I'd settled...
Where do you think would be a good spot to move to? I didn't have a chance to see the corn due to placement of the qeucha, and I thought 1N was possibly horse or something. 1S could have been decent, I lose the plains hill to the north but gain a better grassland one. Anywhere else though and I lose a seafood. I'm usually too scared to move my settler unless I see somewhere obviously better lol, need to get out of the habit of always SIP.
ChocoGwaja
Chieftain
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Not much has been explored, but what I can see so far, you may not have the luxury of riverside cottage site for the ultimate bureau capital.
This capital has so much food, you can make it a GP farm and put down the National Epic here.
Or... all those food tiles can be shared by putting two cities north and south of the capital along the coastline. Like 3N and 3S1E. By doing so, those cities can grow onto the food tiles while helping grow cottages. There are lot of water tiles, so even without rivers, commerce will be decent. Colossus may even make sense, if you have copper, since HC is industrious as well. I'd check the coastline to see if there are other seafood tiles along the coast. If you are going GLH, more coastal cities you have, the better.
Capital has so many forests! Depending on your map situation, you can definitely leverage it by either building essential wonder(s) here or building up an army to go after somebody.
Great starting area, but not sure about land to your north and to your west.... may need to see more. ^_^
This capital has so much food, you can make it a GP farm and put down the National Epic here.
Or... all those food tiles can be shared by putting two cities north and south of the capital along the coastline. Like 3N and 3S1E. By doing so, those cities can grow onto the food tiles while helping grow cottages. There are lot of water tiles, so even without rivers, commerce will be decent. Colossus may even make sense, if you have copper, since HC is industrious as well. I'd check the coastline to see if there are other seafood tiles along the coast. If you are going GLH, more coastal cities you have, the better.
Capital has so many forests! Depending on your map situation, you can definitely leverage it by either building essential wonder(s) here or building up an army to go after somebody.
Great starting area, but not sure about land to your north and to your west.... may need to see more. ^_^
1S would be tiny bit better city - gain extra 1 hill and replace Plain hill with clear green hill.. maybe copper/iron?! (and I like when city works as "shortcut" too.... 2nd city could be1N from Oasis - later corn, 3rd could work Pigs - all coast, with Sailing instant connection - can save a lot of worker turns).. But with FIN and coast based empire huge part of commerce can come from GLH trade routes - they work up to Corporations and at some point (some later Renesaince/early Industrial) capital from trade routes alone can gain 24-32, even 40 (Castle or Free Market - makes 5 trade routes) commerce that can transform into >100 beakers without working single cottage.
Imploding
Warlord
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I would just expand on the previous comments. In this case having a buro, Maoi Capitol, working water tiles. migth be a really cool thing, both production and Commerce in one spot.
The advantages for this city as i see it is a ton of Food. You will have following food surplus, only conting tiles and improvments giving more than 2 food. Before sailing 3+2+2 =7, after sailing and a ligthhouse 3+3+3+1 = 10 after buro, 4+3+3+1 = 11.
I would had settled 1S. With FIN That gives 8, 3c water tiles(with moai thats basicly 2-3 "free" hills" that you can work while you grow). IMO getting the GLH is mandatory for this start, and with a IND leader. The colossos could also be a cool thing.
So you could easily grow into a bigger size when you get monarchy. while working "okay" tiles. Having a 20 pop GLH buro/moai/colossos capitol in the BCs?
I think it will give a higher Return from just overall tiles worked "more" water tiles than you probably would With a rivercottagecapitol With less food. It also gives the flexibility to be a GP farm, when you are in golden ages etc. You can also cottage/workshop some grassland tiles.
It's not the greatest start, but with the right strategy I think it could be really cool and different capitol.
OP: can you upload the starting save, from 4000 BC? I might make a emperor video about it
I just want to see how "ridicules" I can make this capitol with moai,colossos an that big of a food advantage
The advantages for this city as i see it is a ton of Food. You will have following food surplus, only conting tiles and improvments giving more than 2 food. Before sailing 3+2+2 =7, after sailing and a ligthhouse 3+3+3+1 = 10 after buro, 4+3+3+1 = 11.
I would had settled 1S. With FIN That gives 8, 3c water tiles(with moai thats basicly 2-3 "free" hills" that you can work while you grow). IMO getting the GLH is mandatory for this start, and with a IND leader. The colossos could also be a cool thing.
So you could easily grow into a bigger size when you get monarchy. while working "okay" tiles. Having a 20 pop GLH buro/moai/colossos capitol in the BCs?
I think it will give a higher Return from just overall tiles worked "more" water tiles than you probably would With a rivercottagecapitol With less food. It also gives the flexibility to be a GP farm, when you are in golden ages etc. You can also cottage/workshop some grassland tiles.It's not the greatest start, but with the right strategy I think it could be really cool and different capitol.
OP: can you upload the starting save, from 4000 BC? I might make a emperor video about it
I just want to see how "ridicules" I can make this capitol with moai,colossos an that big of a food advantage
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I would just expand on the previous comments. In this case having a buro, Maoi Capitol, working water tiles. migth be a really cool thing, both production and Commerce in one spot.
The advantages for this city as i see it is a ton of Food. You will have following food surplus, only conting tiles and improvments giving more than 2 food. Before sailing 3+2+2 =7, after sailing and a ligthhouse 3+3+3+1 = 10 after buro, 4+3+3+1 = 11.
I would had settled 1S. With FIN That gives 8, 3c water tiles(with moai thats basicly 2-3 "free" hills" that you can work while you grow). IMO getting the GLH is mandatory for this start, and with a IND leader. The colossos could also be a cool thing.
So you could easily grow into a bigger size when you get monarchy. while working "okay" tiles. Having a 20 pop GLH buro/moai/colossos capitol in the BCs?
It's not the greatest start, but with the right strategy I think it could be really cool and different capitol.
OP: can you upload the starting save, from 4000 BC? I might make a emperor video about it
Yeah agree with 1S, but as you'll see it's more difficult to tell at the very start. Uploaded the 4000BC save as requested.
Don't want to spoil to much but the rest of the map isn't great either, and in my distraction trying to build up an economy I got DoW; not actually that early but I wasn't at all prepared(my fault I know heh).
Interested to see how you go, I'll have to check out your channel too, wasn't aware of any LP's really other than Absolute Zero and TMIT.
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Yeah, I meant to make clear that the settling decision would depend on your starting warrior position and movement. SIP is fine and based on the information you had at the time, really the only thing you could do. So point is, I would not worry about that decision at all. SIP can often bet he best move especially if you don't have enough info to do otherwise.
Imploding
Warlord
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I settled 1 S, even tho as lymond points out - SiP is probably the best decision based on the information you have.
I wanted to build a monster capitol. My route to it was as follows:
Oracle MC, GLH, Moai, colossus in capitol. I half assed the mids and lost it.
Rushed Monarchy to be able to continually grow and currency for +1 trade routes and to beg for some gold from the nice neighbour after seeing him mass an army at my border.
Think my cap was pop 16 and I was building MoM (think the MoM without marble was way to greedy.). Ended up with working all 8 of the 2f4c1h water tiles. + some cottages. Then I got DoW'ed by a guy which name we shall not pronounce, right after our peace deal ended!
My conclusion about the start is that even with the Inca (which are ideal for the above mention strategy), on emperor, I never felt the strategy did not pay of. Its just an absolute absurd amount of hammers you have to put into warriors for happiness and building wonders etc. The tech pace was also not to impressive. In hindsight I think. 2-3-4 more settlers would have been better than to grow the capitol the 12-13-14-15 size. As soon as I felt that my cap was starting to "give something back" from the heavy investment I put into it.. we got attacked.. so hm..
So to answer OP's original question. How would I leverage this capitol?
Oracle MC, GLH, then use the food/hammers to settle as much cities as possible.
I wanted to build a monster capitol. My route to it was as follows:
Oracle MC, GLH, Moai, colossus in capitol. I half assed the mids and lost it.
Spoiler :
Rushed Monarchy to be able to continually grow and currency for +1 trade routes and to beg for some gold from the nice neighbour after seeing him mass an army at my border.
Think my cap was pop 16 and I was building MoM (think the MoM without marble was way to greedy.). Ended up with working all 8 of the 2f4c1h water tiles. + some cottages. Then I got DoW'ed by a guy which name we shall not pronounce, right after our peace deal ended!
My conclusion about the start is that even with the Inca (which are ideal for the above mention strategy), on emperor, I never felt the strategy did not pay of. Its just an absolute absurd amount of hammers you have to put into warriors for happiness and building wonders etc. The tech pace was also not to impressive. In hindsight I think. 2-3-4 more settlers would have been better than to grow the capitol the 12-13-14-15 size. As soon as I felt that my cap was starting to "give something back" from the heavy investment I put into it.. we got attacked.. so hm..
So to answer OP's original question. How would I leverage this capitol?
Oracle MC, GLH, then use the food/hammers to settle as much cities as possible.
lindsay40k
Emperor
I'd be aiming to chop out a couple of Settlers, couple of Wonders, probably GLH and Mids, maybe Oracle MC or CoL if no neighbours found a religion, then get working specialists whilst looking to capture or settle a decent wiggly river city. Two Plains Hils and IND is enough to have other cities start building Wonders then get Cuzco to build it for GPP and self-generated failgold. There's even an argument for Maoi Statues here, if you get Stone, so as to ensure a Shrine and make up for mediocre hammers.
lindsay40k
Emperor
Had a bit of a play through...
Any way to modify the starting save so we get random events?
Spoiler :
Any way to modify the starting save so we get random events?
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^ Sorry but I certainly don't know how to modify saves...
Nice playthrough thus far, I haven't had a chance to give it another go after the first failure. From memory there was a fair bit of land but a lot of it was pretty average, going for culture could be a good move if you can keep Monty from doing any real damage (w/ IND etc). If Monty's land is better though and you could find a way to take him out you could probably take the game any way you wanted, not sure what/who was on the other continent as I never made it that far.
Nice playthrough thus far, I haven't had a chance to give it another go after the first failure. From memory there was a fair bit of land but a lot of it was pretty average, going for culture could be a good move if you can keep Monty from doing any real damage (w/ IND etc). If Monty's land is better though and you could find a way to take him out you could probably take the game any way you wanted, not sure what/who was on the other continent as I never made it that far.
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Lindsay - Open start save, Open WB, Save off WB file. You can play that save as a Custom Scenario and adjust options. However, note that you need to add back barb techs. On Emperor I think they need at least Hunting and Archery...maybe Mining
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lindsay40k
Emperor
Cheers
Build order on my good playthrough:
I forgot how amazing Quecha are. Easy access to Woodsman III, stealing Workers guarded by Archers, what me fogbust? I've a good mind to farm a couple CRIII and upgrade with failgold!
Build order on my good playthrough:
Spoiler :
I forgot how amazing Quecha are. Easy access to Woodsman III, stealing Workers guarded by Archers, what me fogbust? I've a good mind to farm a couple CRIII and upgrade with failgold!
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Relearning the power of the Quechua! That is awesome!
It should not be hard to get a Woodsman III Combat I Medic III Super Medic! That's 40 hit points of healing in the plot with the Quechua and normal 25 hit points of healing in Ring 1 plus any healing for being in enemy/neutral/own terrain and enemy/neutral/friendly/own cities.
It should not be hard to get a Woodsman III Combat I Medic III Super Medic! That's 40 hit points of healing in the plot with the Quechua and normal 25 hit points of healing in Ring 1 plus any healing for being in enemy/neutral/own terrain and enemy/neutral/friendly/own cities.
lindsay40k
Emperor
One thing I've learned about super medics is they've got an annoying habit of taking their two first strikes and jumping in front of an incoming charge. Lovely for getting free XP from Catapults, but no fun if they challenge a Swordsman and roll badly. Quecha make it easy to get one or two Woodsman III Axemen who can act as bodyguards, alternatively the GG should hit Siege-damaged archery units hard enough be able to continue farming XP without upgrading past Quecha and thereby painting a target on themselves. They really are a force to be reckoned with, far beyond their era!
1 thing I somehow missed for some time - you can't build regular (any other civ) warrior if have iron/copper and Hunting.. but you can with Quecha.
This tiny thing by itself allow to have that Ivory/Furs happy boost and to have riverside Iron/Copper (well, can't avoid connection in this situation) and still spend tiny hammers for military police (well, every hammer counts, specially early game)
This tiny thing by itself allow to have that Ivory/Furs happy boost and to have riverside Iron/Copper (well, can't avoid connection in this situation) and still spend tiny hammers for military police (well, every hammer counts, specially early game)
NineOneSix
Chieftain
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Good, the Incan civ needs all the help it can get
Pangaea
Rock N Roller
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An option that hasn't been mentioned yet is to first cottage, then farm over it, then cottage again. I mean, the AI does it, so I'm sure it must be a very good idea
(Noticed that about Quechuas too, it was odd to have them available for such an absurdly long time)
(Noticed that about Quechuas too, it was odd to have them available for such an absurdly long time)
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