What to look for in tablet computers?

[Zack]

Needs:
Decent stylus and note-taking, voice recording apps
Full Browser for web surfing
iPad size range

Wants:
MS Office (almost a need - I will get a windows tablet if it satisfies all of the needs and most of the wants)
Decent selection of apps
Decent battery life
(the last two are very negotiable depending on how well the tablet meets the other criteria)

I've skimmed some reviews, and from what I can tell, the Lenovo Thinkpad Tablet 2 checks off all of your needs/wants, except decent selection of apps (but that's a Windows 8 problem, and they'll have most of the "core" apps you'd want, if not all). It's supposed to have a really good keyboard, too.

 

[Zelig]

Windows RT problem, not a Windows 8 problem.

Windows 8 even runs any Android app through BlueStacks. Wouldn't bother with it on an Atom tablet, but an i3+ should power them fine.

 

[Zack]

Bah, you know what I meant.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Dots per inch, so basically resolution per screen size. Windows RT tablets are all 1366x768, 10.6" is really the biggest tablet I'd get with this resolution.

OK I was just confused because DPI usually refers to printer resolution - I've never seen it used wrt pixels, but now I understand.

Depends a bit on what you want for stylus - any tablet will support a simple capacitive stylus, but one of those isn't going to work much better than your finger anyway. Other tablets have various levels of gimmickery (Samsung Note supports stylus, but not a Nexus device, so I wouldn't recommend, you can hack up bluetooth stylus things with ipads).

What do you mean by gimmickery and how would bluetooth apply to a stylus?

Here's a list of stylus-compatible Windows tablets: http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/hardware/52592-list-windows-8-rt-tablets-convertibles-stylus.html

Thank you again.

A properly designed modern site uses a single responsive design between mobile and desktop, generally based on resolution, you get the same site as you would on a phone if you make your window narrow on a desktop.

Well that's assuming 'properly designed' applies to the sites I visit.

In any case, this seems like it won't be an issue since I am leaning towards the Microsoft Surface Pro, with IE 10 + full compatability with anything that will run on a PC.

FYI youtube is going to work fine on any tablet, it's got apps and html5 video so doesn't even need flash.

I am mostly worried about flash compatability and even then it's only really an issue for my wife. I figured that Youtube would be fine, but I mentioned it just to fully disclose my uses/needs.

Not available yet, Android and iOS versions are coming probably sometime in the next year.

For true? Is this rumored or likely to happen?

Windows RT doesn't give you stylus input.

That and the fact that only Metro apps run on it pretty much makes me disqualify all RT tablets. While it sucks that there isn't too many Metro apps, being able to run full desktop software makes Windows 8 tablets very attractive and pretty much makes the lack of dedicated apps a non-issue.

I don't think any Windows tablets will give you offline GPS capabilities, I'd suspect Nokia will do this whenever their tablet comes out.

Apologies, but as with Youtube, I really only mentioned GPS for full disclosure purposes. I was simply listing all the things I do with my phone in an effort to show I'm not too app dependent. In fact, now that I think about it, it was kind of dumb to put 'decent selection of apps' in the wants column.

The way I see it now, you have Android (good apps selection), iPad (great apps selection), RT (crap apps selection) and 8 (crap apps but access to PC software). Now that I've thought it over, I could care less about almost all of my apps and the fact that a full Windows 8 tablet runs PC software makes the availability of apps a largely redundant requirement. It also puts Win 8 tablets head and shoulder over other tablets (and I went into this process almost sure I'd be getting an Android tablet) since I'm going to be using this for productivity purposes.

IIRC there are styli that use some sort of carbon to work with capacitive touch screens, but they also have a round tip which is indeed not better than a finger.

I have a friend who has a stylus that he uses to take notes on an iPad with. He doesn't seem to have any issues, so I think getting a stylus that works decently will not be impossible. In fact, the one he uses has a pretty blunt tip but it writes very fine lines. Anyway, the fact that the Surface Pro has integrated support for the stylus is still a big plus.

As for the rest, Android has dropped out flash support from 4.1 onwards, yet installing it on my 4.2 Nexus 7 consisted of searching on google for it and downloading it from xda-developers. Google Maps doesn't work offline but there are plenty of opensource offline navigators (also that joke named Tom-Tom, they put up a version for 70€ and people even dare to buy it!).

So you could get Flash support, but you have to get it from a 3rd party website? Hmm I heard those can be really virus-filled.

Are you talking about Tom Tom devices or Tom Tom Apps? I have a device and it works quite well, though I'd never ever consider a Tom Tom app as long as Google Navigator/Maps is free.

Also, yeah, just to reiterate, I don't care about GPS on a tablet. My bad.

I've skimmed some reviews, and from what I can tell, the Lenovo Thinkpad Tablet 2 checks off all of your needs/wants, except decent selection of apps (but that's a Windows 8 problem, and they'll have most of the "core" apps you'd want, if not all). It's supposed to have a really good keyboard, too.

I will look into those as well as the ones you posted about earlier.

Oh wait it's a Windows RT Tablet? I'll probably pass on that then, Windows 8 tablets are looking really phenomenal.

Windows RT problem, not a Windows 8 problem.

Windows 8 even runs any Android app through BlueStacks. Wouldn't bother with it on an Atom tablet, but an i3+ should power them fine.

What is BlueStacks?

Bah, you know what I meant.

Hey mang, I didn't know what you meant until I read Zelig's comment. Then again, I may be computer literate but I'm tablet ********.
____________

I realize now that before when I mentioned keyboard attachments, what I really was talking about was keyboard attachment docks with their own batteries and additional connectivity (USB, etc) ports. My friend has an Asus Transformer thingy and it's really cool how the keyboard (which doubles the battery life) just pops off.

However, I realize I'm not going to get everything I want. They are also rumored to be working on a detachable battery for the Surface Pro, which I assume will have an integrated keyboard and ports.

In any case, like I said, battery issues aren't a major concern. Also, the Surface Pro has USB 3.0. While it only has one USB port, 3.0 is fast enough that I could attach a USB 3.0 multiport and would never really worry about any bottlenecks if I happened to be sending data to multiple devices simultaneously with it (also very unlikely). It does have a display port - does that transfer audio the way an HDMI does? I know that the display port is capable of outputting better resolution but I'd never heard of it before now so I'm not sure if it transfers audio as well.

So basically, at this point I'm really looking at the Surface Pro for the following reasons:

*Full Windows 8
*Integrated Stylus Support
*Good Screen Size
*Integrated Stand
*Nifty detaching keyboard accessory
*USB 3.0
*Forward and Rear Facing Cameras (though I understand they aren't very good)
*High Screen Resolution
*I am buying Office Student for my PC, so I get licenses to install it on 2 tablets as well - so that's covered
*Full Microsoft support - it won't ever stop getting upgrades as a full Windows 8 machine (though I understand this isn't as much of an issue with tablets as it is with phones)
*Full Web Browser
*From a good brand
*Can handle Civ 5


Cons:
*Very expensive
*Crap battery life
*Currently no battery/keyboard dock

So, is there anything I'm missing?

Are there any 'tranformer' style tablets (where they are like laptops but the screen swivels down and folds over so it's a tablet)? I remember a few of them a couple of years ago but IIRC they kind of sucked. Am I discounting Android and hyping Windows 8 too much? (Realizing there was a difference between RT and 8 and discovering what that difference meant was pretty eye opening)

 

[Zack]

Oh wait it's a Windows RT Tablet?

Um, no? When did anyone say that?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I got that from this comment this exchange:

but that's a Windows 8 problem, and they'll have most of the "core" apps you'd want, if not all

Windows RT problem, not a Windows 8 problem.

Please keep in mind:

Then again, I may be computer literate but I'm tablet ********

 

[Zack]

Windows 8 has the same app marketplace as Windows RT, which is what I was referring to.

Also, fwiw the Vivo Tab gets something like 20 hours of battery life when connected to the keyboard dock, but from what little I've skimmed the Lenovo's keyboard is way better.

 

[Zelig]

What do you mean by gimmickery and how would bluetooth apply to a stylus?

There are a various stylus technologies using bluetooth and other technologies, I don't really know anything of value about them, have never tried them and don't know anybody who uses them - all I know is capactive styli and wacom style styli.

For true? Is this rumored or likely to happen?

Rumored, and likely. It's been under development for a while, and MS and Apple have been arguing about how to handle revenue splitting of subscriptions for the tablet version.

That and the fact that only Metro apps run on it pretty much makes me disqualify all RT tablets. While it sucks that there isn't too many Metro apps, being able to run full desktop software makes Windows 8 tablets very attractive and pretty much makes the lack of dedicated apps a non-issue.

FWIW, Metro is really good while you're using the device touchscreen only, and the desktop is quite poor with only touchscreen.

So you could get Flash support, but you have to get it from a 3rd party website? Hmm I heard those can be really virus-filled.

I wouldn't (and don't) bother with this, it's going to work more and more poorly as time goes on and Adobe doesn't update it.

What is BlueStacks?

Android emulator for PC. Reception hasn't been great so far, I'm not particularly bullish on it.

It does have a display port - does that transfer audio the way an HDMI does?

The port can, I assume the Surface Pro supports it.

So basically, at this point I'm really looking at the Surface Pro for the following reasons:

*I am buying Office Student for my PC, so I get licenses to install it on 2 tablets as well - so that's covered

Seriously look at the $80 for 4 years of University 365, if that's not what you're referring to. The Surface Pro doesn't qualify as a "tablet" in terms of Office licensing, it's just a PC.

*Full Microsoft support - it won't ever stop getting upgrades as a full Windows 8 machine (though I understand this isn't as much of an issue with tablets as it is with phones)

Well it will stop getting updates in 2023.

*Crap battery life

I wouldn't call it "crap", it's just not tablet-class. The OS, CPU, and SSD, weight and battery life are all notebook-class rather than tablet-class.

Are there any 'tranformer' style tablets (where they are like laptops but the screen swivels down and folds over so it's a tablet)?

Yeah, they're mostly kind of junky from what I've seen, the Ideapad Yoga looks to be one of the best of the bunch.

Am I discounting Android and hyping Windows 8 too much?

I dunno, it really depends on what you want to do, and your use cases. I've got a Surface RT, because I mostly use it for reading and movie watching where 10 hours of battery life is awesome, and I use my regular laptop if I need to get any work done while mobile.

 

[Zack]

To clarify, afaik it's not that Windows RT is not sylus-enabled, but that there are no Windows RT devices with digitizers / palm-rejection available.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

To clarify, afaik it's not that Windows RT is not sylus-enabled, but that there are no Windows RT devices with digitizers / palm-rejection available.

Ok thanks.

Windows 8 has the same app marketplace as Windows RT, which is what I was referring to.

Also, fwiw the Vivo Tab gets something like 20 hours of battery life when connected to the keyboard dock, but from what little I've skimmed the Lenovo's keyboard is way better.

So both of those run Win 8 and they both have keyboard/battery docks?

I take they aren't stylys enabled though...that would be too good to be true. I will check them out.

There are a various stylus technologies using bluetooth and other technologies, I don't really know anything of value about them, have never tried them and don't know anybody who uses them - all I know is capactive styli and wacom style styli.

Do you know anything about wacom? That is what Surface Pro uses.

FWIW, Metro is really good while you're using the device touchscreen only, and the desktop is quite poor with only touchscreen.

Thanks. I also saw that the surface pro has sizing issues due to it's screen's higher resolution. It sucks though that you have to switch in and out of metro depending on which apps or programs you want to use. That seems kind of dumb.

Seriously look at the $80 for 4 years of University 365, if that's not what you're referring to. The Surface Pro doesn't qualify as a "tablet" in terms of Office licensing, it's just a PC.

That is what I am talking about. It sucks that the Surface Pro counts as a PC though. I need Office for my desktop and I hoped to use one of the mobile installs on the Surface Pro.

My wife is also getting either a tablet or a laptop. If she gets a laptop, then I will have to buy a second copy of Office just for her laptop. Same if she gets a Win 8 tablet.

Of course, a Win RT would have it for free and if she gets an iPad or an Android, it's also a moot point. But as she will need this for work, I think she'll wind up getting either a Win 8 tablet or a laptop. We will see.

I wouldn't call it "crap", it's just not tablet-class. The OS, CPU, and SSD, weight and battery life are all notebook-class rather than tablet-class.

It is crap. I am practically in love with it already but if it is going to have a tablet form factor, it needs a decent battery life. I realize it's a laptop in tablet form and sacrifices had to be made. I can live with what it has and it probably won't be an issue. But it's still crap battery life for a tablet.

Yeah, they're mostly kind of junky from what I've seen, the Ideapad Yoga looks to be one of the best of the bunch.

Ok I will look at that one as well.

I dunno, it really depends on what you want to do, and your use cases. I've got a Surface RT, because I mostly use it for reading and movie watching where 10 hours of battery life is awesome, and I use my regular laptop if I need to get any work done while mobile.

Well, this purchase is a laptop replacement. It is also a tablet for use in the classroom and on the couch. That's why it is so hard to pick one, it has to be good at both and nothing available does everything well.

I don't want a laptop either, even if I could get a good laptop and a good tablet at the same price. I want one to do it all.

Do you have the typepad attachment or the touchpad attachment for the Surface? (the keyboard thingies) If so, how do you like it? Have you tried both?

I think the touchpad (the one without real keys) looks really cool but I have no idea how good it will be for moderate to heavy use and I have no way of trying it out.

 

[Zack]

So both of those run Win 8 and they both have keyboard/battery docks?

I take they aren't stylys enabled though...that would be too good to be true. I will check them out.

They DO have styli... hence why I said they check off all the boxes on your wants/needs list.

Do you know anything about wacom? That is what Surface Pro uses.

Basically all digitizers are Wacom.

It is crap. I am practically in love with it already but if it is going to have a tablet form factor, it needs a decent battery life. I realize it's a laptop in tablet form and sacrifices had to be made. I can live with what it has and it probably won't be an issue. But it's still crap battery life for a tablet.

It's mediocre battery life for a laptop, let alone a tablet.

 

[Zelig]

Yes, that does appear to be the case.

As I've mentioned before, I really think MS underestimated where Intel would be with their chips by now - as it stands, there's no manufacturer (other than maybe tens of dollars of difference) advantage to using ARM instead of Atom in tablets.

Next 5-10 years are going to be interesting. Intel has the best R&D in the world, is a solid 1-2 years ahead of everyone else, and is aggressively pushing chips to smaller form factors, while there's noise that Apple is looking to vertically integrate from the opposite direction with their own ARM chips.

MS is positioned conservatively, so they'll do fine regardless of what happens, but in the meantime it strains their relationships with hardware companies.

 

[Zack]

I'm not sure why no one has made a Windows RT device with a good stylus. If the Surface RT had the Pro's stylus, it would be the perfect tablet for a college student.

 

[Zelig]

Do you know anything about wacom? That is what Surface Pro uses.

Bare minimum: 1024 degrees of pressure, no battery required, full manufacturer support.

Do you have the typepad attachment or the touchpad attachment for the Surface? (the keyboard thingies) If so, how do you like it? Have you tried both?

I think the touchpad (the one without real keys) looks really cool but I have no idea how good it will be for moderate to heavy use and I have no way of trying it out.

I've got the touchcover, I like it, it's better than I expected. By default the tablet speakers make a tone when you type keys, I have difficulty typing quickly if I can't hear the tone - in that case I type about as well with my thumbs on the split onscreen keyboard. (My keyboard use is hardly typical, this is my regular keyboard which I use connected to my usb laptop "dock", and it has a built-in speaker to play a tone on key-presses.)

If I was getting the Surface Pro I'd probably get the type cover. Or possibly the touch cover and an additional bluetooth keyboard. (I actually use my touchcover more than the keyboard on my actual laptop, my laptop I either have docked to a real keyboard, or if I'm travelling I lug a bluetooth keyboard around with me.)

It's mediocre battery life for a laptop, let alone a tablet.

I really don't think it does, it gets >5 hours for video playback. Anandtech only has the Acer Aspire S7 done for the new Win8 battery life tests (says he'll be adding the 11-inch MBA this weekend), and the Surface Pro does an hour better than the Acer for both light and medium workloads.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

They DO have styli... hence why I said they check off all the boxes on your wants/needs list.

Ok brah, it is hard to keep track of individual tablets mentioned mentioned while I am learning so much stuff. My head is still spinning over the whole RT/8 thing. I had thought Windows tablets had a pretty interface but were pointless because why would people want to buy into a tablet ecosystem with hardly any apps.

Now, I am left wondering why anyone will buy into Apple or Android's ecosystem when you can get a full PC OS on a tablet and run everything a PC does. I do get what a massive headstart Apple and Android have and the huge number of apps available.

But for many users, having access to PC software trumps mosts apps and eventually they will get the apps as well. It will take time though for Win 8 tablet hardware to mature,though but the surface seems like a bar-setter.

Time will tell I guess.

Does anyone think that as hardware improves and the software is optimized that RT will go awat and/or Android and iOS will move toward full-suite OS's - more in line with Win 8?

Basically all digitizers are Wacom.

What does a digitizer do that a capacitive stylus doesn't?

It's mediocre battery life for a laptop, let alone a tablet.

Yup, but even when my Galaxy S I had a new battery, I only got 6 hours or so out of it during heav use. My laptop only got 3-5, but it's a power hungry gaming rig.

Still, I am used to frequent charging and being tethered to a chord. Plus, some of my classes have outlets in the desks and I doubt I will ever have more than a 3 hour block where I can't charge. So this wont be an issue.

Oh and the Surface has a USB charging outlet in the brick of the power chord so you can charge a phone as well.

I do need to look at the other tablets but the Surface looks pretty good for what I need.

Thanks again Zach.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yes, that does appear to be the case.

As I've mentioned before, I really think MS underestimated where Intel would be with their chips by now - as it stands, there's no manufacturer (other than maybe tens of dollars of difference) advantage to using ARM instead of Atom in tablets.

Next 5-10 years are going to be interesting. Intel has the best R&D in the world, is a solid 1-2 years ahead of everyone else, and is aggressively pushing chips to smaller form factors, while there's noise that Apple is looking to vertically integrate from the opposite direction with their own ARM chips.

MS is positioned conservatively, so they'll do fine regardless of what happens, but in the meantime it strains their relationships with hardware companies.

I don't know what this means or what it was in response to.


So you like the touchcover eh? No issues typing with it? I am just leery is all.

If you like it, why do you recommend the typecover? Am I missing something?

 

[Zelig]

That was in response to Zack's post about RT and styluses, you guys posted a couple times inbetween.

I like the touch cover because it's thin and better than typing on the screen. The type cover is better for typing, but thicker. A bluetooth keyboard is even better for typing, but again thicker, and doesn't work as a cover. A full-size ergonomic keyboard is best for typing but not at all practical for travel, or even moving off your desk.

I'd get the type cover over the touch cover if I wasn't planning on using the bluetooth keyboard, and if I was going to do more typing. (It sounds like you'll be doing more typing on your Surface than I do on mine.)

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I just got tripped up because you said you used the touchcover more than your regular keyboard, which gave me the impression that it is well suited to heavy typing.

 

[LamaGT]

BTW, you might want to check out the Vaio Duos 11

Core i7, stylus, fully fledged keyboard, huge memory and other things the Surface doesn't have. It's not much of a tablet anymore though, and the price isn't exactly low, but it's a pretty cool thing.

 

[Zelig]

I just got tripped up because you said you used the touchcover more than your regular keyboard, which gave me the impression that it is well suited to heavy typing.

Sorry, I meant I use the touch cover on my tablet more than the keyboard on my laptop - because my laptop is generally connected to full keyboards for heavy typing, while I often have my tablet out in situations for light typing.