What turn does Hanging Gardens usually go on?

[LaminarFlow]

As the title says, what turn (or range) does the HG usually get built. I don't really build it that often and I keep getting beat to the punch.


It may be a good idea to have a thread that has all of the normal build times for the early wonders just for a reference. I realize build times may vary greatly between games but it would be nice to have something to go on.

 

[Tabarnak]

It may be a good idea to have a thread that has all of the normal build times for the early wonders just for a reference.

I think there is a thread for Deity already. For other difficulties i'm not awared of.

 

[w a i n y]

My experience is that on deity, either it goes by turn 40 or it doesn't go until past turn 80 .

 

[peddroelm]

I've seen it go early (49+)

You stand a decent chance of getting it on the 55-62 turn interval ...

 

[danieldaniel]

I made 10 attemps to beeline mathematics and build the HG last night (Aztecs, deity, standard pangaea, all standard settings).
Every single time some AI built it before turn 50.
My research path was mining > AH > archery> the wheel > math. Sometimes the HG was built before I had time to research math.
Once I had marble, and I got archery and masonry from ancient ruins, still no luck.
I think deity HG is highly unlikely.

 

[peddroelm]

I made 10 attemps to beeline mathematics and build the HG last night (Aztecs, deity, standard pangaea, all standard settings).
Every single time some AI built it before turn 50.
My research path was mining > AH > archery> the wheel > math. Sometimes the HG was built before I had time to research math.
Once I had marble, and I got archery and masonry from ancient ruins, still no luck.
I think deity HG is highly unlikely.

Techs: Mining, Pottery Writing, AH, The wheel, Archery, Mathematics,Philosophy(NC & Legalism for free temple), Lux Tech, Civil Service(if rivers), -> Education ...

Build: Monument, Worker, Granary, Scout, Library, Water Mill(if river), Scout, Archer, HG

SC: Tradition Opener, 2 Liberty(free worker and worker speed), Aristocracy, ... Full Tradition (ideally saving Oligarchy for last // most games you will need Oligarchy after Aristocracy just to stay alive as going for HG attracts multiple early war decs... )
{this will cause your capital to grow tiles like wild fire - not uncommon to expand and grab luxuries - strategics 4 tiles away before turn 100...}


first 500 gold should go to a Cultured CS (will need mining resources to afford it early, mining luxuries have a secondary advantage of being prioritized by the governor when growing tiles and will save you some money from having to buy hills)
will need gold to buy some hills for mines ...


================
Settle according to the 5,4 rule (5 production (8 turns monument, 14 turns worker) , 4 food (8 turn to grow to the second citizen))

===============
Acquire 2-3 +3 food tiles first (grassland, floodplain, wheat farms, cows, jungle bananas, Deer ) (grow grow grow)

Then 2-3 +3 production tiles (mines on hills) (will probably have to buy hills at this stage..)

Try to save some forests for chopping when building HG...
================

With 6-7 pop you should be able to get HG done a bit after the 60 turn mark ...

Babylon can tech to Math faster (with settled GS from writing)..
Korea can also get to Math a bit faster by using 6-7 unemployed citizens to tech Math while building a settler ....

=================


The biggest problem however are the early war decs that will at best cause delays by occupying crucial production tiles ....


===========

Marble is not so great because you will usually research masonry after philosophy -> will be useful for NationalColege, HagiaSophia, NotreDame - not for the HG ...



///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Another possible way might involve getting the GL(very very dicey on deity) and using it to bulb math ...I suspect low chances of success
(even with early culture ruins, french, and ideal (mining luxuries,hill, forested map) ...)

 

[danieldaniel]

The problem is the AI built the HG before turn 50 every time, in 10 games. What good is being able to build the HG in turn 60 if the AI has it in turn 45?

 

[peddroelm]

The problem is the AI built the HG before turn 50 every time, in 10 games. What good is being able to build the HG in turn 60 if the AI has it in turn 45?

Did you just reload the same map from the start ? From my experience HG is available past turn 60 in more than 50% of the cases ...

 

[danieldaniel]

I rerolled a different map every time. All standard size pangaeas with 8 civs. Maybe it was just my bad luck

The time I got masonery and archery from ancient ruins and had marble and still got beaten to the HG... that was really annoying.

Is it actually faster to research pottery and writing before maths beeline? I didn't try that. Also, aren't you worried about missing ancient ruins when you build your scouts so late?

 

[CultureManiac]

A practical idea is to keep track of the turns when each wonder is built in your games, then you can use the numbers to give you a good estimate whether you have much of a chance to build the wonder first.

For discussion sake, let's say after 10 games, a particular wonder has been built by the AI in 40, 42, 39, 45, 56, 54, 47, 51, 42 and 43 turns. The median turn - where half the numbers are above and half are below, is 44. This should tell you that if you can build the wonder in less than 44 turns, you have a greater than 50-50 chance to build it. If it takes you longer, then your chances are lower. (You can set whatever benchmarks you like - 66% or 75% for example - and then use your data to determine how many turns you need to complete it by if you want to complete it successfully three out of four times, for example). Of course, the more numbers you have, the more reliable they are.

The trick here is keeping your sample numbers pure. You can only compare numbers from the same settings - speed, difficulty level and even size, since with more AI building wonders the numbers will be lower. Also, you can't use the numbers for any wonder you built, because you won't be able to tell on what turn the AI would have built it.

Do this for a dozen games on the same settings, for all the wonders that are built (not just the early ones) and you will have a great guideline to know if you are on track or not, or if it will be worth trying to get that new tech so you can build a wonder you want, or whether the odds are against you and it is better to put your resources into another line of research.

 

[peddroelm]

Is it actually faster to research pottery and writing before maths beeline? I didn't try that. Also, aren't you worried about missing ancient ruins when you build your scouts so late?

I move the early warrior in a rough 7-8 tile circle around the capital -> he usually gets 2-3 ruins (always keep him close to protect the workers from barbarians) . The late scouts will have less chances to get ruins (they are still crucial to meet the other civs for trade//RA - city states) ...

The early monument is important because otherwise crucial social policies will not come in time ... The early worker could be replaced with a scout - and brought with the first 310 (get a loan if you have to) (workers and stone-works are the most efficient to rush buy in the ancient age...)