What's a Born Again Christian?

[GenMarshall]

So, when Ezekiel called down the fire of God to consume the idol worhippers he was merely being tolerant?

I highly doubt you read up on idols and idol worshippers at all. If you had you wouldnt see it that way....that is if you were honest.

So if I call down the fires of God on some Buddhists, would that make it right? No. I did read that and I only took it as a context of a story, not a litteral passage that many fundies tend to do.

Exactly. However, as a Christian brother, I humbly suggest that you should care to find scripture to back up your statements. Just a suggestion mind you.

I dont see you as a クリスチャンの兄弟 (kurisuchan no kyoudai). I see you more as a Protestant hostile to my views on universal salvation.

(Translation: kurisuchan no kyoudai = Christian Brother)

The differences are minimal. The message is still the same. If you are truly that worried about it, go with a standard like I do with the New King James version AND when doing research, refer to the original hebrew and greek text and translate it yourself using a concordance.

Sorry, but I am not touching no Protestant bible or any non-Catholic Bible that is missing the seven
Deutero-Canonical books.

Unlike you, at least I do compromise my faith to ensure equalness towards others and avoid double standards and avoid being called an intolerant bigot.

As for your biblical proof for Universal Salvation (Or Universal Reconcilliation), Here is your scriptures!
John 12:32: "And I (Jesus Christ), when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

1 John 2:1-2 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world."

Acts 3:21: [Jesus] "must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through the prophets."

Ephesians 1:9-10 "And he (God) made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ."

Romans 5:18-19 "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

Romans 8: 18-19 "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

Romans 11:32: For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all

1 Timothy 4:10: "We have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever.

 

[MobBoss]

Are you offering evidence that people who spoke against God have been smitten? I would love to see this.

Plenty of them in the bible, but I offer this as reason: Leviticus 24:13 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 14 “Take outside the camp him who has cursed; then let all who heard him lay their hands on his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
15 “Then you shall speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Whoever curses his God shall bear his sin. 16 And whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall certainly stone him, the stranger as well as him who is born in the land. When he blasphemes the name of the LORD, he shall be put to death.

There are several false prophets in the OT who dropped dead as well, and I seem to recall a husband and wife who refused to tithe dropping dead as well somewhere in the bible.

 

[GenMarshall]

There are several false prophets in the OT who dropped dead as well, and I seem to recall a husband and wife who refused to tithe dropping dead as well somewhere in the bible.

Strange and I hold the view of Universal Salvation and yet by your logic I should be dead. However I am still alive and kicking .

 

[Adamb0mb]

Plenty of them in the bible, but I offer this as reason: Leviticus 24:13 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 14 “Take outside the camp him who has cursed; then let all who heard him lay their hands on his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
15 “Then you shall speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Whoever curses his God shall bear his sin. 16 And whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall certainly stone him, the stranger as well as him who is born in the land. When he blasphemes the name of the LORD, he shall be put to death.

There are several false prophets in the OT who dropped dead as well, and I seem to recall a husband and wife who refused to tithe dropping dead as well somewhere in the bible.

Any secondary sources? egyption records of the plagues or the like?

Stonings don't really count as smiting because they are carried out by man. The husband and wife probably had small pox or something.

 

[bhsup]

Any secondary sources?

Second sources are not required to backup the divine, inspired Word of God.

 

[MobBoss]

So if I call down the fires of God on some Buddhists, would that make it right? No. I did read that and I only took it as a context of a story, not a litteral passage that many fundies tend to do.

Even if you dont take it litterally, idol worship is a blasphemy before God. There can be no question about it.

I dont see you as a クリスチャンの兄弟 (kurisuchan no kyoudai). I see you more as a Protestant hostile to my views on universal salvation.

(Translation: kurisuchan no kyoudai = Christian Brother)

Judging me are you? Tsk, tsk. I am not hostile towards you, but I am hostile towards false doctrine.

Sorry, but I am not touching no Protestant bible or any non-Catholic Bible that is missing the seven
Deutero-Canonical books.

Red Herring. Even those were written in hebrew or greek. Thats why I refer to the original root words if I really want to know what a word means.

Unlike you, at least I do compromise my faith to ensure equalness towards others and avoid double standards and avoid being called an intolerant bigot.

I think its bad for anyone to compromise their faith. As I pointed out earlier, Christ said that I would be persecuted for merely following his path....I dont think you can follow Jesus and avoid being persecuted.

As for your biblical proof for Universal Salvation (Or Universal Reconcilliation), Here is your scriptures!
John 12:32: "And I (Jesus Christ), when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Thats not universal reconcilliation, but it is how Jesus says he will draw those even in the wilderness. Draw does not equat a free ticket into heaven. Sorry.

1 John 2:1-2 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world."

And? Of course Jesus is our advocate in heaven. He died that our sins may be forgiven, but again, that does not absolve us from following him and not continuing to sin, nor for asking for repentance/pennance when we do sin.

Acts 3:21: [Jesus] "must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through the prophets."

Well, you should have also pasted all of this scripture which is:

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,[a] 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

Wow. Every soul who will not hear that prophet (meaning Jesus) shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. So much for universal salvation! Thanks CG, you found the most direct denial of universal salvation! You rock! Case Closed!

No real need to go on I think. That scripture from Acts just seals the deal, completely. Thanks CG..nice find.

 

[classical_hero]

So it is, you admit, your "faith" that God, for whatever reason, wants to send billions of His creations to eternal torture for being in the wrong place in the wrong time.

Once we have established that, you are in no position to criticize anyone else for disagreeing.

(as far as the day being 24 hours long, it is because the babylonians considered 6 an important number and thus made an hour 1/24 of a day . . .)

But the Lord does not want anyone to go to hell but that all should repent.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But there is the unfortunate fact of sin and that everyone is a sinner.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

But there must be punishment for sin, that being death.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And this is where the issue of being born again comes into the equation because we are dead in our sins.
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And this is where the term born again comes from because everyone is dead to God and being born again is refering to you being back in contact with God again.
Romans 5:8-11 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

And that is why we must be born again.

Now onto the issue of forgiveness. There are two conditions placed on forgiveness.
1. Repentance. Since this verse was used by El_Mach, I will not need to repost.
2. Confession.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Generally these two things are very closely related since when you confess that you have done something wrong, then it is basically an outward showing of repentance.

As others have already shown, that we Christians need to have an attitude of forgiveness but you cannot forgive someone of wrongdoing if they are not going to ask for it. That is often the issue that people have with God. They see all these bad things happening and acuse God of being evil, but do not realise that without asking God to forgive them of their sins, then they are just recieving the penalty of sin, and that being death.

Everyone needs to confess to God that they are sinners. This is basically what being a Born Again Christian is all about. Agreeing with God (confession) that you are absolutely worthless and can do nothing about your situation and being totally relant on God to save you from your sins.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

What do you make of the fact that there is such a disparity in the Christian populations of different cultures? If every one has the chance to accept Christianity on an equal basis, then the only reason that there are so many more Christians in Brazil (if you accept Catholics as Christian, which oddly some don't) than in Indonesia is that Brazilians are inherently more righteous. It is clear that culture plays a huge role, and I doubt most of us would be Christian if we grew up in, say, Thailand.

So why does God allow so many cultures to exist that are not predominantly Christian? Why would He set the whole system up so that avoiding eternal punishment is so hard for most, but so easy for a few? Can you come up with a better reason for it than "[My particular interpretation of] the Bible says so"? If you can't should your views be taken seriously?

 

[beingofone]

Adamb0mb

Any secondary sources?

IPUWER PAPYRUS - LEIDEN 344 TORAH - EXODUS
2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.

2:10 The river is blood.

2:10 Men shrink from tasting - human beings, and thirst after water

3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin.
7:20 …all the waters of the river were turned to blood.

7:21 ...there was blood thoughout all the land of Egypt …and the river stank.

7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.
2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.

10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps... The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish

6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.

5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.
9:23-24 ...and the fire ran along the ground... there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous.

9:25 ...and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field.

9:31-32 ...and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe.

But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up.

10:15 ...there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.
5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan...

9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together.
9:3 ...the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field... and there shall be a very grievous sickness.

9:19 ...gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field...

9:21 And he that did not fear the word of the Lord left his servants and cattle in the field.
9:11 The land is without light 10:22 And there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt.
4:3 (5:6) Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls.

6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets.

6:3 The prison is ruined.

2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.

3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison.

12:30 ...there was not a house where there was not one dead.

12:30 ...there was a great cry in Egypt.
7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land. 13:21 ... by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.
3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze... are fastened on the neck of female slaves. 12:35-36 ...and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And God made the Egyptians favour them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth.

IPUWER PAPYRUS

The Plagues of Egypt

There are many, many Egyptian records that concur with the scripture.

 

[bhsup]

Why do so many people ask "why does God..."? We're not God, we can't be sure why he does what he does. I would suggest asking God, and if you don't get an answer, then just wait until you're dead to hopefully find out.

 

[CurtSibling]

Indeed - I wonder why so many here also think they can speak for their
god, seeing as he is allegedly an unknowable and macro-cosmic entity...

I suppose these particular posters must be very special people.

Soothsayers or speakers in tongues...!

...

 

[bhsup]

Well, I rather meant more about subjects that the Bible may be silent on.

 

[warpus]

Never? How do you know that warpus? I've heard various stories about people who have

You've heard stories.. hearsay..
care to elaborate on these (non-biblical) stories?

ut having said all that, what excuse will a man have if he has heard the message and understood it and still rebelled against the message?

I heard the message of Muhammed, Buddha, Zoroaster, etc. too. I'm supposed to accept all these contradicting messages?

what on earth offends you so much about Christ that repentence and acceptance of him is so repulsive to you? -

Repulsive? Not really.. He's just one of many prophets that I do not accept. I do not single him out or have anything against him or his adherents

No Eran, I dont think he "wants" to at all. But I do believe that for whatever reason, there are apparently rules that dictate who goes to hell and who doesnt. I happen to believe that the bible is quite clear on these rules.

Shouldn't the fact that billions of people are going to hell simply for being born in the wrong place at the wrong time be a sign that what you believe could be flawed?

 

[CurtSibling]

Christianity provides too many easy answers.

But on the thread subject...Christianity also provides a good excuse
to move on and not take responsibility for past failure and disgrace...

...

 

[Xanikk999]

I heard the message of Muhammed, Buddha, Zoroaster, etc. too. I'm supposed to accept all these contradicting messages?

So true.. If christianity is right you cant blame people of other faiths...

 

[Mauer]

Unlike you, at least I do compromise my faith to ensure equalness towards others and avoid double standards and avoid being called an intolerant bigot.

I know your comments are directly pointed at MB, but I really am sorry to hear that you don't see MB as a brother in Christ, and indirectly me as I hold the same biblical views as he does. I especially am sorry to hear that you (as a christian) think us bigots for believing the word of God. Am I a bigot if I only tell others what He expects? Or do you consider Him a bigot?

First, the resurrection of Jesus (I know this wasn't you that asked CG, but it's in here somewhere) is the least optional part of the Christian faith. The Apostle Paul identified at least six consequences that would be unavoidable if the resurrection of Jesus was not in fact true, as found in 1 COR 15: 14-19

The preaching of Christ would be senseless and meaningless;
Faith in Christ would be uselss since He would still be dead;
All the witnesses and preachers of the resurrection would be liars;
No one would be redeemed from sin;
All former believers would have died as fools;
and, Christians would be the most pitiable people in the world.

Now regarding universalism. You would most definitely have to ignore 2 Thessalonians chapter 1. In particular v 8-9
"in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might."

 

[Mauer]

But on the thread subject...Christianity also provides a good excuse
to move on and not take responsibility for past failure and disgrace...

...

Actually, it's a call to take responsibility for past failures and disgraces. I don't answer to you for my sins, and you don't answer to me for your sins. I have sinned and owned up to it to the One who requires me to. Have you not sinned? If not, then the Gospel is not for you, and you will be judged according to your works. I know you don't believe this, and I'm not trying to force you to. Just telling you what the bible says, and if you don't care then why respond? Just let me be foolish

 

[CurtSibling]

I guess it all hinges upon the level of sincerity that the 'born-again' person has.

.

 

[Mauer]

I guess it all hinges upon the level of sincerity that the 'born-again' person has.

.

Right , which indirectly somewhat answers the question someone posted earlier about the ones that would be cast out who had "cried Lord! Lord!" to Jesus.

 

[warpus]

All former believers would have died as fools;

That's a foolish reason to believe something. A lot of people have died believing things that aren't true; it doesn't make them any more true.