What's a Born Again Christian?

[MobBoss]

Like I said, I don't mind when Christians forgive without repentance first, I think it's a better world if they do. I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone that my interpretation is correct, either.

I dont try to convince anyone either. I make my statement and then back it up with biblical scripture. It they dont want to accept the truth right in front of them.../shrug.

Jesus also sets a pretty high bar, with regards to Christians forgiving others: you have to forgive everybody for everything

I think to do any less only puts a burden upon you...not them.

But Jesus also promises to turn away many Christians who claim Him to be saviour, denying them Heaven.

Correct. Thus if he has even such a high standard among Christians who fail in their attempt, why on earth would he give people of other religions a free ride into heaven?

Here's what I was talking about: despite your reference to forgiveness above, my claim is that (in the Bible days) there was no call to forgive until they had repented. One certainly had to forgive (like your verses indicate), but not until it was sought.

Then by all means provide some scripture to back your assumption up. I gave you direct quotes from the bible where it says to forgive those that transgress against you.

Keep in mind that it's the same way the Christian god operates. He only forgives those who ask for forgiveness.

/shrug. God has his own set of rules. I/we are not God.

 

[MobBoss]

What crusader battle? To be frank, I dont even agree with MobBoss's stances . I take it you have missed the memo that I have forsaken fundamentalist zealism

And the bible too apparently. Is your only comment on biblical scripture that it was written by man and thus so tainted it should be ignored?

After gaining a bit of Humility in myself, I see religious zeal as unnecessary and immature. I've been through the ugly side of fundamentalist zeal and I can say, it was not pretty breaking the one commandment that I constantly ignored "Love thy neighbor as thy self".

Again...how do you get to the point of where you translate "love they neighbor as thy self" to "everyone gets into heaven". I love my neighbor as myself (or at least I strive to on a daily basis)....but more than that is required for one to get into heaven. Again, thats basic Christianity 101.

 

[punkbass2000]

But in the end a group of enlightened bees realizes that it doesn't matter what is going on inside the church and what colour it is to live a happy life, so they decide to use logic and reason to make sense of their surroundings instead.

Eventually the bees invent a device capable of scanning through the glass to determine what colour stuff is and what the hell is going on inside. Certain bees complain that this data is not collected directly, so it can't be trusted. Other bees worship a candle. Some bees blow themselves up.

And some bees wouldn't worry and would continue to collect their pollen and make honey.

 

[El_Machinae]

Then by all means provide some scripture to back your assumption up. I gave you direct quotes from the bible where it says to forgive those that transgress against you.

I did?
"If he repents, forgive him"

In the other places, Jesus makes no bones about forgiving when it's due. It has to be unreserved forgiveness or blammo! no Heaven. But the culture of the day was that you don't need to forgive until asked.

Meh, it's not like I care what you believe, since you're choosing to think that it's Christian to forgive without repentance. No skin off my back.

It's merely a doctrinal issue: a person can be a Christian either way. Just like you trust God to never let you down, even though Jesus clearly states that He'll deny many who thought He'd be their saviour.

/shrug. God has his own set of rules. I/we are not God.

Clearly.
The average Christian (regardless of variety) has either forgiven God His behaviour (despite a lack of apology) or has altered their ethics such that God is allowed to commit the atrocities He commits, making them 'good'.

It's a strange policy, but common through many religions. To the outsider, it's really tough to see the actions of the gods as morally acceptable.

 

[MobBoss]

But what about a person who dies having never heard of Jesus, the Bible and everything? Say, someone born in one of the very poor, non-Christian regions of Africa. The person will probably struggle to survive, remain largely illiterate and receive very little education outside of things needed for survival and maybe some local (very local) traditions. Such communities still exist. Then this person would die at the age of 20 or so because of sickness, starvation or some other reason. He hasn't accepted Jesus, hasn't read the Bible. But he's never even heard of the Bible and Jesus.

Does he go to hell? If so, for what, if he never made a choice not to accept Jesus? Or do you believe that God would speak to such a person and offer him a choice nonetheless?

In answer I will merely say how did God call to Abraham when he was in the wilderness? People in the wilderness are not automatically lost, and it is either in their heart to seek the truth, or not. Those that seek truth will find it.

 

[rysingsun]

How about you? Any onus to repent to those you transgress against, or do you need to only repent to God?

If I've seriously offended someone I should confess to him as well as to God. I don't have a good answer for where to draw the line between big offenses and trivial matters. You will have to ask others for that one.

 

[CurtSibling]

Just because you don't understand the point I'm making doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. Well, okay, to you it doesn't.

I leave it to the student to figure out what I'm talking about.

Pffft. Here we have an example of status abuse.
If I answered honestly to this uncalled for insult, you would quickly switch to Mod mode and ban me.

All I will say is that I refuse to play along. You know exactly what I meant.
Anyone can be zealous...But not everyone is plugged into reality and logic.

I refuse to demolish my mind to suit those who are stubbornly stuck in faith.

.

 

[warpus]

In answer I will merely say how did God call to Abraham when he was in the wilderness? People in the wilderness are not automatically lost, and it is either in their heart to seek the truth, or not. Those that seek truth will find it.

If that were true and Jesus was the Universal Truth, then Christianity would be more widespread than it is.

Why are only 3-4% of Chinese Christian? 2% of Indians?

Why were there no Christians at all in the Americas until the Europeans got there? The Native Americans (of both south and north America) were very spiritual people. You say they were not automatically lost. So how come none of them found Jesus?

People who find Jesus have first been told about him by somebody else. There has never been an instance of somebody "in the wilderness" finding Jesus without first having been told of him by somebody else.

 

[bhsup]

Why were there no Christians at all in the Americas until the Europeans got there? The Native Americans (of both south and north America) were very spiritual people. You say they were not automatically lost. So how come none of them found Jesus?

You may get some disagreement from Eran and Matt regarding that statement.

 

[rysingsun]

People who find Jesus have first been told about him by somebody else. There has never been an instance of somebody "in the wilderness" finding Jesus without first having been told of him by somebody else.

Never? How do you know that warpus? I've heard various stories about people who have, and you will no doubt ask me how I know the stories are true ... so lets not fight over stories. But since Abraham has come up in the discusssion ...

Abraham did not find Jesus while he was alive. But .. he was a man of faith and "God credited his faith as rightousness". Jesus preached to those of faith after he was crucified ... yes, to those who had already died. And those of faith were saved too. Even Christians struggle with this concept since the Bible speaks only rather sporadically about how it is that those of faith from before the time of Christ could indeed be saved through Christ's sacrifice through faith in him. But we know it to be so. God is a rightous God and I am not worried about the "man in the wilderness" who has never heard of Jesus or the child who dies before having been able to make a conscious choice for or against Jesus. "To God all are alive". He will get it all straight.

But having said all that, what excuse will a man have if he has heard the message and understood it and still rebelled against the message? The man who has seen the love of Christ - come on all you scoffers. what on earth offends you so much about Christ that repentence and acceptance of him is so repulsive to you? - the man who has learned and known Christ, but rebelled against him, and this man uses as an excuse for his rebellion that someone in africa hasn't heard the gospel?

to civg ... i can see you are a religious person. a person who is willing to work hard to please God. very commendable! but now why does salvation through faith and faith alone offend you? A true mystery of the universe, that men from far and wide will struggle and work. they will sacrifice, they will spend long hours in prayer. they will fast and give their money to the poor and many other things besides, but they will refuse to come to Jesus their maker and receive the gift of salvation for no other price than a few minutes of humility before him, and instead say he is "unjust" or "unloving" or else that he is simply unnecessary. Please do not make the same mistake as so many others.

 

[Turner]

Pffft. Here we have an example of status abuse.
If I answered honestly to this uncalled for insult, you would quickly switch to Mod mode and ban me.

Not quite. Unlike others who've wielded the ban stick, I don't bait users into breaking the rules and then banning them for it.

All I will say is that I refuse to play along. You know exactly what I meant.
Anyone can be zealous...But not everyone is plugged into reality and logic.

I refuse to demolish my mind to suit those who are stubbornly stuck in faith.

.

And despite your 'misunderstanding', you understood me as well. All I'm doing is applying the same style to you, that you do to others.

 

[GenMarshall]

Havent you seen the commercials lately? Macs can run windows too. Ditto for this arguement...both Catholics and Protestants can read the bible....imagine that.

Unfortunately, we dont read the same Bible. The Catholic Bible contains more books than the Protestant bible.

Why not? It is an extremely basic thing in the bible. We get free will, but are held accountable for our choices in life.

He doesnt control the human population to worship him only because that would be false love. Come on CG, this is baby step christian stuff. I know you havent been a christian that long, but free will being tied to responsibility is one of the first concepts there is in the bible.

But punishing a person because 1. He or she does not believe in Jesus. 2. Never heard of Jesus and/or 3. Chose a wrong religion?! Sounds to me that God is more authoritarian than benevonent. Why should a person like a Buddhist monk who has never even heard of Jesus be punished for not even hearing about Jesus. Sorry, but being punished for chosing a wrong religion does not sit well with me. I believe in universal salvation in which regardless of your faith, you would still have a chance to go into heaven.

Because of their hearts. Those that desire to be in his presence will seek him, even in the wilderness.

Thats illogical! How can someone seek Jesus if they NEVER HEARD OF HIM!!?

And if I am truly a christian, whats so wrong with my life being wrapped around the bible? You say that like it is a bad thing?

Its a bad thing because it makes one ignorant to the rest of the world and become over zealious fundamentalist Christian. Also, zealious fundamentalist Chrisians such as yourself makes me turned off to Christianity due to it's bigorty, double standards, and religious exclusiveness. Fortunately I am in a denomination that reconises other religions as well as see their adherants a chance for salvation.

It always has been. I thought you said you read the bible. Read Matthew. Specifically. You will get your answer in there. Then you disagree with Christs own opinion on the issue.

Arent we free to disagree with such controvertional issues especialy with Religious exclusiveness? I am free to disagree with Religious exclusiveness.

And again, Christ is very clear on the matter....if you reject him, his father will reject you. And you will be persecuted for following Christ. Christ himself said people will be upset with you, just like you are upset with me.

I dont care if his father would reject me if I suddenly reject Jesus. Same goes for anyone who rejects or never heards of Jesus. There are other ways to enter into heaven, and its not just through Christianity

No, CG, having your head in the bible merely makes you an informed christian who knows their faith. For a Christian, that is a good thing, not a bad thing. I am not blind to the world at all, but I see it the way Jesus sees it.

Even if it makes your views bigoted and less tolerant towards others? Sorry, I rather be a tolerant Catholic Christian than a bigoted intolerant one.

When Jesus and the diciples were on that boat and the storms came the diciples got scared. What did Jesus say?

I dont see how that statement has to do with me holding a universal salvation opinion.

My wife and kids went all the way to Waveland, Mississippi to help hurricane katrina survivors because they felt Jesus told them to go help people. Should they not have done it?

They should have done it by the goodness of their heart, not what Jesus said so.

So ask yourself CG...why are you so fearful, O you of little faith?

I am not fearful nor do I have little faith

And the bible too apparently. Is your only comment on biblical scripture that it was written by man and thus so tainted it should be ignored?

I dont disagree with the Bible, only on certan segments that advocates religious exclusiveness. I did not say the Bible is tanted, I just said that there would be translational errors from Hebrew -> Greek -> Latin -> English.

Again...how do you get to the point of where you translate "love they neighbor as thy self" to "everyone gets into heaven". I love my neighbor as myself (or at least I strive to on a daily basis)....but more than that is required for one to get into heaven. Again, thats basic Christianity 101.

"love thy neighbor as thy self" is something I agree with in the Bible. I did not said "everyone gets into heaven", I only said that "everyone has a chance to get into heaven regardless of religion".

Correct. Thus if he has even such a high standard among Christians who fail in their attempt, why on earth would he give people of other religions a free ride into heaven?

So you also admit that Christians too are not eligable into heaven. Boy did I picked the wrong religion .

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I still can't get over when, a few pages ago, CG agreed with CS. What is next?

 

[GenMarshall]

I still can't get over when, a few pages ago, CG agreed with CS. What is next?

Well, isint it true that fundamentalism does paint a bad picture on religion? At least I am not antireligion like Curt, but I do admit that fundamentalist zeal does paint a negaitve picture on a religion.

Whether it would be a Muslim Terrorist or a Fundamentalist Christian. There are bound to be a minority of people who gives the big picture of a religion a bad image.

 

[MobBoss]

Unfortunately, we dont read the same Bible. The Catholic Bible contains more books than the Protestant bible.

The scriptures I have read from and given to you, are most certainly IN your bible, as well as mine......so thats no excuse to not read your bible. Nor have you given me any scripture references from any bible, catholic or otherwise, to back up your assertions.

But punishing a person because 1. He or she does not believe in Jesus. 2. Never heard of Jesus and/or 3. Chose a wrong religion?! Sounds to me that God is more authoritarian than benevonent.

He is both. Quick to forgive those that repent and quick to punish those that deny him.

Why should a person like a Buddhist monk who has never even heard of Jesus be punished for not even hearing about Jesus. Sorry, but being punished for chosing a wrong religion does not sit well with me.

Again, read your bible...even that catholic one. Even catholics have standards for heaven you know.

I believe in universal salvation in which regardless of your faith, you would still have a chance to go into heaven.

Again, where does Christ say this? Where is your biblical proof?

Its a bad thing because it makes one ignorant to the rest of the world and become over zealious fundamentalist Christian. Also, zealious fundamentalist Chrisians such as yourself makes me turned off to Christianity due to it's bigorty, double standards, and religious exclusiveness.

I have no bigotry in me...and I most certainly have no double standards. The bible is the standard, and what Jesus says the rule. I wonder why that would turn you off?

Fortunately I am in a denomination that reconises other religions as well as see their adherants a chance for salvation.

I recognize other religions and am quite tolerant of them. You wont see me sitting outside of some temple with a protest sign. But simply, I do know what Jesus says regarding the issue and no amount of hand-wringing by you will change what Jesus said.

Arent we free to disagree with such controvertional issues especialy with Religious exclusiveness? I am free to disagree with Religious exclusiveness.

Sure you are free to disagree. However, I am also free to point out your lack of proofs to back up your point. Thats why I back up my comments with scripture.

I dont care if his father would reject me if I suddenly reject Jesus.

Ah...as a Christian, you should. He kind of runs heaven you know.

Same goes for anyone who rejects or never heards of Jesus. There are other ways to enter into heaven, and its not just through Christianity

Again, WHERE IS YOUR BIBLICAL PROOF OF THIS? You keep muttering about it, but never provide scripture to back it up. There is no magic "back door" to heaven.

Even if it makes your views bigoted and less tolerant towards others? Sorry, I rather be a tolerant Catholic Christian than a bigoted intolerant one.

Who is calling who names now. You dont like people calling you a bigot, so please dont do it to me. I havent called you anything except ill-informed of biblical scripture...which is just a fact, not an insult.

I am not fearful nor do I have little faith

Then why would you be afraid to jump off a bridge if Jesus said to? Would you go into the fire for him? Into the Lions den? Or is that just too 'creepy' for you?

I dont disagree with the Bible, only on certan segments that advocates religious exclusiveness. I did not say the Bible is tanted, I just said that there would be translational errors from Hebrew -> Greek -> Latin -> English.

I assure you, as much attention that has been given the bible by the world over the centuries, it is the most accurately translated text in all of history. Heck, even you can research it in the original Hebrew or Greek and see what the text means for yourself if in doubt. Sorry, but there simply are not 'translational errors' like you refer...thats just a cop out to make excuses for what the bible says.

"love thy neighbor as thy self" is something I agree with in the Bible. I did not said "everyone gets into heaven", I only said that "everyone has a chance to get into heaven regardless of religion".

Again...show me where it says that. Please. Back it up.

So you also admit that Christians too are not eligable into heaven. Boy did I picked the wrong religion .

Sure, many who consider themselves Christians will not make it. Do you think the Pharisees were going to make it? Do you think those Christians that abuse power but dont repent make it? The path is narrow, CG and few there are that truly walk it. Do you understand what NARROW means? Many brides will not have oil for their lanterns and will thus miss the ride when the son of man returns. His words, not mine.

 

[MobBoss]

I still can't get over when, a few pages ago, CG agreed with CS. What is next?

Thats what compromise will do to you.

Well, isint it true that fundamentalism does paint a bad picture on religion? At least I am not antireligion like Curt, but I do admit that fundamentalist zeal does paint a negaitve picture on a religion.

Whether it would be a Muslim Terrorist or a Fundamentalist Christian. There are bound to be a minority of people who gives the big picture of a religion a bad image.

Are you saying that I give religion a bad image? Are muslim terrorists the same as fundamentalist christians in your eyes? Bullcrap, CG. I tell the truth of what the bible says and give Christ's own words to back it up. If that makes me a "bad christian" in your eyes well so be it. At least I dont water down my faith or make excuses like the bible has bad translations in order to just have people view me more favorably. Being a Christian isnt about being liked. The world is SUPPOSED to persecute you...so I actually suppose I am fullfilling that when you call me a bigot or compare me to a mulsim terrorist.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Honestly, I cannot believe why you would hold such a view just because the Bible seems to say so. How do you know the Bible is the complete truth, and more importantly, how do you know your interpretation is correct? Seriously, what you are arguing makes no sense.

 

[MobBoss]

Honestly, I cannot believe why you would hold such a view just because the Bible seems to say so.

Ah...the bible is the word of God. Is God in the habit of lieing? Nope. Why would you hold a view that the angel Gabriel appeared and gave some guy a couple of plates?

How do you know the Bible is the complete truth, and more importantly, how do you know your interpretation is correct? Seriously, what you are arguing makes no sense.

Again, sure it does. This isnt like some creationist theory, or a discussion on 6 days to create the universe. This is something simple. Its very, very basic and even Christ himself spoke of it. He said 'I am the way, the truth and the light and only through me will one see God the father'. Again, being a christian is declaring the son of God your lord and savior, and only through him will you gain entry into heaven. He even says if you reject him, in turn his father will reject you.

Thats simple stuff Eran...very basic and very straightforward and its part of the core of christianity. God didnt let pagans and blasphemers who prayed to their idols into heaven....no matter how "good" they were. And it is just silly and stupid and a blatent lie to somehow paint a picture that oh, you can pray to your idol and still get into heaven. Sorry, but from a Christian viewpoint and from biblical scripture it just aint going to happen.

Now I suppose that makes me the bad guy because I dont serve that up with a side order of roses. /oh well. I dont treat people with kid gloves and I shoot it straight. If a politically correct world wants to think everyone no matter their faith gets into heaven isnt backed up biblically, then I am going to point out how false that is. To do any less would be to doom people to hell in my eyes. Bear in mind, I didnt start this discussion...I was asked what I believed. Well, I have given that, and also given biblical scripture to back it up.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Ah...the bible is the word of God. Is God in the habit of lieing? Nope. Why would you hold a view that the angel Gabriel appeared and gave some guy a couple of plates?

How can you be certain that the Bible is the word of God and no other book is? You just said that you know the Bible to be the word of God because the Bible is the word of God.

Again, sure it does. This isnt like some creationist theory, or a discussion on 6 days to create the universe. This is something simple. Its very, very basic and even Christ himself spoke of it. He said 'I am the way, the truth and the light and only through me will one see God the father'. Again, being a christian is declaring the son of God your lord and savior, and only through him will you gain entry into heaven. He even says if you reject him, in turn his father will reject you.

Thats simple stuff Eran...very basic and very straightforward and its part of the core of christianity. God didnt let pagans and blasphemers who prayed to their idols into heaven....no matter how "good" they were. And it is just silly and stupid and a blatent lie to somehow paint a picture that oh, you can pray to your idol and still get into heaven. Sorry, but from a Christian viewpoint and from biblical scripture it just aint going to happen.

Now I suppose that makes me the bad guy because I dont serve that up with a side order of roses. /oh well. I dont treat people with kid gloves and I shoot it straight. If a politically correct world wants to think everyone no matter their faith gets into heaven isnt backed up biblically, then I am going to point out how false that is. To do any less would be to doom people to hell in my eyes. Bear in mind, I didnt start this discussion...I was asked what I believed. Well, I have given that, and also given biblical scripture to back it up.

But why? Forget whether God is all-loving or not; why would He go to all the trouble of creating billions of humans who have no real chance of actually making it into heaven?

 

[MobBoss]

How can you be certain that the Bible is the word of God and no other book is? You just said that you know the Bible to be the word of God because the Bible is the word of God.

Do I personally know it is? My belief is that it is, but I wasnt there typing it up 2k years ago. So I take it on my faith that it is the word of God, backed up with my historical knowledge of factual parts verified from the bible.

But why? Forget whether God is all-loving or not; why would He go to all the trouble of creating billions of humans who have no real chance of actually making it into heaven?

I dont know Eran. Who knows the mind of God? Perhaps it has something to do with free will. Perhaps its part of some cosmic rule? There are tons of unanswered questions like that which we may never know the answer. Why is a day 24 hours and not 25? /shrug.