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Whe will we get a pure science Civ and science focused civs?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by PlayAsPericles, Mar 25, 2017.

  1. PlayAsPericles

    PlayAsPericles Chieftain

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    Only one civ has a science bent and that is a very secondary focus. Every other victory condition has a TON of civs focused on their victory type. War, religion, and culture all have a bunch of civs that have heavy focus toward a particular victory condition or really good two way focus between those three. What does science have? Arabia with a super secondary focus. Civ 5 had Babylon and Korea which had super science focus bonuses but nothing like that exists in Civ 6 and the latest civs certainly don't help this annoying trend for science loving civ players.
     
  2. CaptainUnknown

    CaptainUnknown Warlord

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    Perhaps they are waiting for an expansion to bring civs like Korea and the Mayans in, where it would be logical to have a campus bonus. They likely didn't want a bonus to feel forced and they may be waiting on other features in a planned expansion to implement the bonus. With that aside, there are some civs with indirect bonuses that could help you however. For example, Japan has bonuses to district adjacent yields so campuses can be more effective. Sumeria has the Ziggurat and Sumeria can get a ton of eurekas through the conquest of barbarian camps. Spain's improvement can give science too if by a campus. Lastly, China is a research civ, in that eurekas and inspirations give a larger boost so there is science focus here as well.

    I know these aren't the bonuses you are looking for, but they allow you to have a science focus if you want. For Sumeria, just keep some fog near your territory and farm those camps, it's cheesy but it's fun.
     
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  3. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    I consider Arabia and Sumer science civs. Both are strong in military as well, but for me they are science. Unlike Macedon which is the other way round.
     
  4. No-Man

    No-Man Chieftain

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    Sumeria has a mild science focus. But, while their military is very powerful in the Ancient Era, I've seen an Informatic Era Sumeria without ANY military units (we're talking Deity difficulty here): Gilgamesh was ONLY focusing on completing the space projects. The thing is that he only had ziggurats everywhere, so his production was practically non-existent, making the completion of space projects nearly impossible.

    Now, I know this isn't the post for the things I'm gonna say next, but it's related to Sumeria and their ziggurats (or any civ that spam special tile improvements): the civs with STI should have a better balance between regular tile improvements, like the very necessary mines and next-to-rivers lumber mills, and their STI. This way they could improve their production, which is key at late stage matches. And also, when you capture their cities, you could actually have something useful, not an empty chunk of land (since STIs irrationally disappear when a city is captured). In this regard, I think that the Civ V mechanism should return: STIs shouldn't disappear. Capturing french chateaus or dutchess polders was awesome.
     
  5. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I found that China's UA is very good at propelling you through the tech tree, so long as you make some effort to achieve the Eureka quests.
     
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  6. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    A science lead means you also have a warfare, production, city size etc lead, however, which means that a science focus immediately means a stronger civ because science improves every aspect of the game (except culture and religion, but even that if your science advantage allows you to get more production through Apprentinceship or something like that, which then allows you to build more districts, which then allows you to get more faith and culture).
     
  7. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    Woah, that is exactly my complaint I posted somewhere. Yes, I also would like a science civ and I would be extremely aggravated if they are holding out on that just because they want to sell a DLC :cry:

    In my humble opinion, Ziggurats are more for avoiding campuses & concentrating on other districts (That make up for the loss in production). Concerning epic quest, I found it less effective than I had hoped: On deity the map is settled quickly, you usually only get a handful of barbarian camps & most rewards are in fact not eurekas.
     
  8. Jarms48

    Jarms48 Prince

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    Australia, you can easily have ancient era campuses with adjacencies of +4. Then you can use the double adjacency bonus card.
     
  9. MantaRevan

    MantaRevan Emperor

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    True, but the same could be said for China as a culture civ if you make some effort to achieve the Inspirations.

    I think Firaxis backed off Science focused civs because of how essential it was for Civ 5. Korea and Babylon were top tier because science was king. Splitting tech tree and avoiding science focus is probably an attempt to avoid that.
     
  10. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Brazil too.
     
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  11. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    AI Arabia really appears focused on science in the let's plays I've seen; that could have more to do with the AI flavors than bonuses Arabia gets to science though.
     
  12. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    I'd disagree. Honestly, I find myself intentionally slowing my progress through the tech tree in the early half of the game because flying through the tech tree too quickly leaves you with districts, units, and buildings that all take too long to build in your cities, effectively gimping you. Of course, the average A.I. doesn't really know how to take advantage of this weakness so it's effectively meaningless. But I would argue that one of the reasons that none of the civs are too heavily science focused is because it's tricky to balance your science outpacing everything else.

    As an easy example, if the only units you can build are medieval units and you don't have Feudal Contracts and/or solid infrastructure in your cities, your armies will take forever to produce.
     
  13. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    Considering that science is still powerful (since it unlocks new units and improves improvements), I doubt we'll see a purely focused civ. Or maybe one with a big bonus and a bunch of useless ones.
     
  14. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    But that's just a question of balance. If the science tree is truly so much stronger than the culture tree (it isn't), then simply make the traits less effective. Certain people would still play it, simply because of individualism.

    And in fact we have a "science" civ already - just for culture. The greek are almost a pure "culture" civ that can run through the tree, just that the tree, as you point out, is called "culture" instead of "science". It's just that some people like campuses & libraries more than theatres & museums. Honestly, I think *everyone* likes campuses more than theatres, right? :mischief:
     
  15. HeliosDisciple

    HeliosDisciple Warlord

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    They gave Australia enormous production bonuses for some reason, so look out for South Africa to be the mega science civ.
     
  16. PlayAsPericles

    PlayAsPericles Chieftain

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    First. Thanks for the replies people. Much appreciated. While several do make the point that there are several civs that play well scientifically thematically they are much more subtle in nature with bonuses etc compared to their warmonger, culture and faith bretheren where there is no doubt about what they can do and do very well. Would just like to see some comparable civs with science as it really does call to the individualism of certain players as mentioned above. I LOVE the civ series but I don't love micro managing units. As a result far more often than not I gravitate to a science victory cause even a cultural victory can require sending out a lot of units for archelogical digs. I prefer to build a strong defensive army and race to a science victory so to have some obvious science focused civs would be a very enjoyable thign to see added to the game even if the trade offs mentioned in the quote above needed to be done. It's the only victory play style not TRULY catered to yet.
     
  17. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    The best civ for a science victory right now, doesn't even get any direct science bonus at all: Germany. The extra district per city effectively means more campuses and the hansa means more production through IZ, despite the nerf in an earlier patch. More IZ and more Campuses mean more GE and GS.
     
  18. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    Indeed. I think production is far more necessary than science for a science win right now because, as I previously mentioned - zooming through the tech tree doesn't really get you much of anything if your civ doesn't have the infrastructure capable of keeping up with your tech rate. The space victory conditions are production intense.

    Even the cost of maintaining you military rises with each age so if your civ can't keep up, you might be in the industrial era but you probably can't afford those units. But, as I also said before - on most difficulties, any A.I. sucks enough that these weaknesses that seem to balance out too much scientific growth aren't really felt because computer opponents don't take advantage of things like meta statistics associated with a particular game.
     
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  19. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    If I understand the OP right, this is not necessarily about science *victory*, but about a science civ in general. You can, of course, apply the science for anything: Research good units to conquer the world, build lots of wonders because you get the techs earlier, beeline production techs to outproduce the enemy etc.
     
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  20. PlayAsPericles

    PlayAsPericles Chieftain

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    Correct. As many have pointed out there are several civs that can do well for a science victory but there are no civs that are specifically designed to be obvious science civs like there is with religion, war and culture.

    Yes, I have always been a production bonus kind of personas well as it helps quite a bit on all facets of the game as you want that production to be top notch when you do get to the space race part of the game you can recover from setbacks if the AI tries to stop you from gaining your victory or enough production to churn out enough units to protect yourself while still trying to finish the race.
     

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