When can you get fired in France?

joycem10

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So I'm reading the story on Yahoo about the French "First Employment Contract" legislation and the protests against it...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2006030...BAF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

...which seems to basically make young employees "at will" for the first 2 years of employment. I was wondering, what exactly does it take for you to get fired in France under ordinary conditions?

Incompetance, swings in the business cycle, violence in the workplace, harassment, theft, staring at the internet for 2 hours a day, mouthing off... can any of these things get you fired? Whats the process? If I opened a small business in France and hired your average Jacque does he basically have a job for life?

No attempt at being a smart ass here, purely interested.
 
I can't comment on France, but in New Zealand, it can be very, very difficult to get rid of anyone. A recent case-in-point was the guy caught on video putting goods outside the back of the factory where he worked, that his friend would then pick-up and take. The friend was convicted for theft, but the the guy who put the goods out there actually won a case for wrongful dismissal and got thousands paid in compensation!

Reason being that his boss had shown him the video tape and asked "what do you think is going on here?" - ie asked the guy to own-up rather than made an accusation. :rolleyes:

In short - you can't fire anyone without going through a long and drawn-out process involving warnings, written warnings etc (unless there is a very clear policy on a given issue). Its a legal minefield.

Relevance? I believe that a lot of NZ labour laws were based on european ones. WOuld not surprise me if France is similar to this - and one political party here had a similar policy to the one you referenced.
 
joycem10 said:
So I'm reading the story on Yahoo about the French "First Employment Contract" legislation and the protests against it...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2006030...BAF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

...which seems to basically make young employees "at will" for the first 2 years of employment. I was wondering, what exactly does it take for you to get fired in France under ordinary conditions?

Incompetance, swings in the business cycle, violence in the workplace, harassment, theft, staring at the internet for 2 hours a day, mouthing off... can any of these things get you fired? Whats the process? If I opened a small business in France and hired your average Jacque does he basically have a job for life?

No attempt at being a smart ass here, purely interested.

Okay. So. Arhm. There is no job for life in France. The closest could be when you are an union member, in which case it will be VERY tricky to fire you. Fortunately a mere 10% of the work force is unionized, and it's actually lower in the private sector, so it is not very common.

Then you have several "kinds" of firing.

You can fire someone "pour faute grave" (for a serious offence). That's where the employee misbehaved, and badly. Cheating, stealing, sexual harassment, all that stuff.
You can fire someone as a "licenciement economique" (economical reason). The trick is, if your business fires too many people in too short a time as a "licenciement economique", you must come up with a "plan de licenciement" (firing process), something very costly for the company because it basically gives to people that are laid off a financial package AND a reemployment help (a job in another branch of the company, for instance). It is quite common for companies to try to trickle the rate of firing so that they do not have to come up with a firing process, and is it quite common for these companies to be sued and loose.

So basically, in France, when you fire someone, you must have a good economical or professional reason. You definitely can not fire someone for his political stickers ;)

When someone is fired, he gets a "preavis", a period of notice, that is three monthes long. The same goes when you quit your job : you must give a three months notice to the company.
When things go well, you can actually make a deal with your company so that you don't have to do these three months. But when you're fired, it's nice to know you have three months during which you have time to find another job.

It is also important to note that every litigation related to the work place falls under a specific juridiction, the "Prud'hommes". Your case will not be judged by a judge, but by a panel of other professionnals : union members, CEOs, employees...

Now for the current "CPE", contrat de premiere embauche. When you hire someone in France, there usually is a probation of 3 monthes during which the employee or the employer can terminate the contract at will, without the mandatory 3 months notice.
You can thus understand that people are wary of a new contract that will extend that 3 months probation by 21 months.

Im my humble opinion, there is a current right now in France to try to turn the workplace more like an "American-style" workplace, where it is much more flexible for the employer to adjust its workforce.
This of course works very well in the US. But is it suited to the French mentality ? I'm not sure.

There are, again IMHO, more important issues to solve first : the fact that it is an economically viable choice right now to remain unemployed for a very long period, for instance. If you are fired, you will get something like 80% of your salary for two years, after wich you will still get some other aids. Not much, but enough to live on.

Okay, that's about it. Other French people, please correct me if I'm wrong :)
 
3 months notice if you quit? That would suck. I know some guys who are salesmen and have jumped jobs twice in just three months.
 
In the fast food industry, people quit without notices. Just one day you're like, hey, where's Paco? Don't know. Didn't show up. And you find out in a couple days he quit.

And likewise, you might not know your schedule for next week (Sunday through Saturday) until the night before. And then you find out you got no hours. That's just life...
 
joycem10 said:
3 months notice if you quit? That would suck. I know some guys who are salesmen and have jumped jobs twice in just three months.

Again, please note that you can work things out with your employer.
 
joycem10 said:
3 months notice if you quit? That would suck. I know some guys who are salesmen and have jumped jobs twice in just three months.

Er, you really prefer the American system of things, where your boss walks in at 4:45PM on Friday and says, "Oh, by the way, your position was cut out of the budget, so go ahead and turn in your ID and have a nice life"?
 
Speedo said:
Er, you really prefer the American system of things, where your boss walks in at 4:45PM on Friday and says, "Oh, by the way, your position was cut out of the budget, so go ahead and turn in your ID and have a nice life"?

Yeah, I really do, especially because I plan on opening my own offices within the next couple of years.
 
I can't comment on France, but in New Zealand, it can be very, very difficult to get rid of anyone. A recent case-in-point was the guy caught on video putting goods outside the back of the factory where he worked, that his friend would then pick-up and take. The friend was convicted for theft, but the the guy who put the goods out there actually won a case for wrongful dismissal and got thousands paid in compensation!

Reason being that his boss had shown him the video tape and asked "what do you think is going on here?" - ie asked the guy to own-up rather than made an accusation.

In short - you can't fire anyone without going through a long and drawn-out process involving warnings, written warnings etc (unless there is a very clear policy on a given issue). Its a legal minefield.

Relevance? I believe that a lot of NZ labour laws were based on european ones. WOuld not surprise me if France is similar to this - and one political party here had a similar policy to the one you referenced.

I know there are alot of steps (verabl warning, written warning, trying to help them) but its there really to help people not hinder them. I thought that in cases of serious misconduct you could be fired immediately. For example i work at a supermarket one person who was always late got fired by taking the steps (warning ect) but atleast two other people i knew got fired on the spot. One for hitting another employee (Note: she was hot as) and another for stealing chocolate.

I guess in this case the boss just called the employee in and yelled at him and said your fired rather than calling his union delegate sitting down in a nice room and telling him he was fired. Whats so wrong with treating someone fairly even if you know there a jerk it will save you time and possibly thousands of dollars down the line.

Also the guy you talk about could have been charged with theft as a servant. And will be hard pressed to ever find a job again.
 
kingjoshi said:
In the fast food industry, people quit without notices. Just one day you're like, hey, where's Paco? Don't know. Didn't show up. And you find out in a couple days he quit.

I should totally do a "Paco".
 
joycem10 said:
3 months notice if you quit? That would suck. I know some guys who are salesmen and have jumped jobs twice in just three months.

I don't know about france, but in switzerland you usually have a trial period of three months when you start at a new job, where you have only 7days of notice.
Furthermore, here in the first year the notice is usually just 1 month and goes up to 3 after that year.

I pretty much like this system, if you get fired it gives you time to look for a new job, and if you quit it gives your employer time to hire a replacement.
 
joycem10 said:
Yeah, I really do, especially because I plan on opening my own offices within the next couple of years.
and would you like it, as a boss, if your employees come in say they quit and leave? see, it works both ways....
 
In the Netherlands emploment-contracts are honored as well (like in France). The usual way to get rid of employees is to start a discharge-procedure. That is usually won by the employee, but immediately afterwards the contract is legally disconnected due to "disrupted work-relationship". That the employer is the cause of this disrupted work-relationship isn't important.

People get fired and people quit jobs. But on the whole; employment contracts are honored.
 
joycem10 said:
Yeah, I really do, especially because I plan on opening my own offices within the next couple of years.
As a lawyer, though, I think you'll appreciate that American workers have a much, MUCH easier time suing than their European counterparts, which is probably why they're a little less demanding in terms of worker protections.
 
Nobody said:
I know there are alot of steps (verabl warning, written warning, trying to help them) but its there really to help people not hinder them. I thought that in cases of serious misconduct you could be fired immediately. For example i work at a supermarket one person who was always late got fired by taking the steps (warning ect) but atleast two other people i knew got fired on the spot. One for hitting another employee (Note: she was hot as) and another for stealing chocolate.

I guess in this case the boss just called the employee in and yelled at him and said your fired rather than calling his union delegate sitting down in a nice room and telling him he was fired. Whats so wrong with treating someone fairly even if you know there a jerk it will save you time and possibly thousands of dollars down the line.

Also the guy you talk about could have been charged with theft as a servant. And will be hard pressed to ever find a job again.

In this particular case, it was only a technicallity - analagous to a police officer taking evidence that wasn't in plain-sight, without a warrant. They simply asked him what he thought the tape showed, rather than telling him what they thought.

Yes, employment contracts are there to protect both the employer & the employee, but the real problem is that small businesses (and in NZ, most businesses are classified as 'small businesses') simply don't have the expertise to understand all the finer points of employment law.
 
Sobieski II said:
I should totally do a "Paco".

In fast food, that's the common way to quit. Actually, Paco callled in Monday saying he couldn't make it becaues of an appointment at 1pm (even though we shared a shift from 10am to 10pm). He was about to be promoted to Chef (a lot of Hispanic chefs in Chinese restaurants here). Another girl quit during her shift telling her supervisor ("**** You. I quit!"). But the general manager got her and her boyfriend to come back a week later. Real soap opera at work. Eventually I quit too.

I think the flexibility on both sides is important because the contract is at-will. If you signed a different type of contract, then that's another situation.

If you have a computer firm and you're firing someone, you don't necessarily want that person to have access to the network for another day, much less three months. I guess the people getting fired in France don't take it out on the boss?
 
Speedo said:
Er, you really prefer the American system of things, where your boss walks in at 4:45PM on Friday and says, "Oh, by the way, your position was cut out of the budget, so go ahead and turn in your ID and have a nice life"?
You forgot it's right before Christmas, after you have bought all of the presents...
 
kingjoshi said:
In fast food, that's the common way to quit. Actually, Paco callled in Monday saying he couldn't make it becaues of an appointment at 1pm (even though we shared a shift from 10am to 10pm). He was about to be promoted to Chef (a lot of Hispanic chefs in Chinese restaurants here). Another girl quit during her shift telling her supervisor ("**** You. I quit!"). But the general manager got her and her boyfriend to come back a week later. Real soap opera at work. Eventually I quit too.

I think the flexibility on both sides is important because the contract is at-will. If you signed a different type of contract, then that's another situation.

Ya, quite frankly, I don't produce enough value to warrant a raise (I try my best though), so I can understand my crap wages, but it just doesn't pay enough to warrant me making my grades suffer. I have a nice manager though, so I know that I could never "do a Paco".

But ya, I have seen some crazy stuff in food service with employees.
 
kingjoshi said:
If you have a computer firm and you're firing someone, you don't necessarily want that person to have access to the network for another day, much less three months. I guess the people getting fired in France don't take it out on the boss?

here, if the company doesn't trust you anymore, they sometimes let people go immediately, but pay their remaining 3 months pay. but as a rule the 3 months notice are honoured, and I haven't heard of many workers that took their anger out on the company, especially since it can land you in serious legal trouble (not speaking of difficultly to find a new job) if you do.
 
Kayak said:
You forgot it's right before Christmas, after you have bought all of the presents...

Well, in my case it was Dec 30, not that there's much difference ;)
 
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