When do you build courthouses?

If you try a domination win prior to State Property and no courthouses, you'll run into a full headache of problems with cities getting massive maintenance. Your science rate will plummet as you barely make enough money to keep your empire afloat.

I like playing organized leaders as they make the courthouses a lot more reasonable. It is also nice to get 7 courthouses up so you can build a Forbidden Palace. I have found that building to be a huge difference maker in early Domination games. Versailles costs so much that it makes it hard to build in a distant city where you would need it.

Courthouses in every distant city usually means you can run the science slider 10-20% higher than you could have otherwise.
 
With an ORG leader, you can often hold off on the Forbidden Palace, allowing you to build Versailles in a more developed locale and still get the maintenance benefit relatively cheap in a far-off city later. Alternately, I've managed to build Versailles in a captured capital. And of course, saving a GE for thie purpose of building that wonder is worthwhile when one is going for early domination/conquest.

But the real key to keeping your economy afloat when trying for an early domination win (imo) is to fight fewer, bigger wars than are sometimes waged. If I don't know I can conquer or subjugate my enemy if I DoW now, I simply don't do it. Moreover, if I don't strongly suspect I will be able to fight another major war shortly after this one, I seriously consider delaying the attack. After a big war, ending in conquest or subjugation, getting the economy rolling again is a fairly simple affair. (whip courthouses, re-deploy the military and dismiss un-needed units) When the war can't be completed in one go, it requires that you tie your military power up to defend a hostile border and maintain a large, expensive force to do it, usually under cultural border pressure.
 
For me Courthouses are one of the 4 basic improvements that should be built no matter how you specialize the city:

1) Theaters
2) Forges
3) Granaries
4) Courthouses

Theaters are No. 1 priority for a new city on a border. They are the cheapest and provide happiness which means you are essentially whipping them for free. Culture is very, very important. But for a backfilling city, Theaters don't have priority.

Forges and Granaries are about equal in importance. Since production translates into just about everything, I love Forges. They give you stronger whips and they also give you happiness for metals. Granaries help every city but how often they kick in and whether they are worth building in the short run really depends on how much food the city can work.

Courthouses give you more money to expand. You need a few of them before your 6th/ 7th city. Since they are giving you a bonus to your empire as a whole and not to the specific city, there's no priority to build them in your new cities- invariably a new city has a greater need for a Theater, Forge or Granary.

Therefore my answer is, under IDEAL situations, you should build Courthouses after
1) 2 Culture pops
2) Forge
3) Granary
4) Build them in your first 5 cities as you expand past your 6th city.

New cities come at a substantial financial cost. Each turn you have to work production and/ or food and/ or run Artists for culture, your empire is bleeding gold. You want the city to be productive and pay for itself (by working 2 Merchant specialists) as soon as possible.

IDEALLY I want every city to
a) Have the population to work the good resource tiles, 1-3 cottages, at least 1 production tile (getting to 6+ production), and enough farms to run 2 merchants. At this point the city can build culture buildings, research, gold or military units as needed. The Forge is the only improvement that is probably worth building in ALL cases. The Courthouse is worth building in MOST cases. The Granary is worth building IF it will get the city to the optimal population faster. The Theater is needed ASAP if the city is fighting for cultural borders.
 
ABigCivFan and mirthadir: I'm not that impressed by the need to run at 100% research for your arguments. It's possible to do that for a short time using gold from other sources and deficit research, but it's not a long term solution to be relied on. That won't work well if you REX hard or use conquest since the gold will be haemorrhaging from multiple under developed cities.

A better estimate might use a long term 70% slider, in which case you'd need 30 commerce for a library to give the same benefit as a courthouse. That is a lot of commerce in the early game when founding a new city. I find that the most cost effective way to found a new cottage based commerce city is to build a courthouse after a granary otherwise the commerce it gives is leeched away in maintenace as the city grows in size. If I'm expanding fast then I just can't rely on the slider being above 50%, let alone 100% :eek:. In that circumstance a courthouse wins over a library and it continues to give its benefits regardless of the slider setting. The benefit is overtaken by a library later in the game when the cottages mature but as the city grows and the empire increases the number of cities the benefit from the courthouse also increases.

It depends on the setup. OR/Resource/IND? I can, and do, stay at 100% till lib with failure cash from wonders (building my fourth set of almost complete MS, yeah, I've done that). Trade, shrines, and settled GPr (to a lesser extent GM or even more rarely GA), make for a pretty easy shot at 100% slider early game.

The real question here is which will be more cost effective when the slower building finishes. Part of the charm of the lib is that is a cheaper whip; getting to the point where you can whip the lib is much easier than a CH so you get the effects sooner. While the CH gives its benefits regardless of average slider; it also gives them later.

If I don't have access to the whip/green mines, then often the lib gets higher priority as the long build times mean that before the CH is finished we will be looking at 4 or 5 :commerce: per tile and lots of them.

This is not to say that in general you are wrong, ignoring the early specs and the :culture: makes CHs better investments, . However given that libs come earlier than CHs, early GSc are cheap and extremely useful, and that early :culture: is at a premium for holding a lot of tiles.

It really is game specific which is better. A sprawling REX with religion for culture popping, then yeah CHs are easily the better choice. A tight packed 5 city empire, then libs virtually every time.

Frankly, if I'm "expanding fast" by either REX or conquest, I just plain don't have CoL and barring Ziggy fun, I'm building libs because they are one of the few things I have that I can build (and that can dig me out of a hole when units start disbanding while I run specs to get to currency).
 
I agree; that in a few instances, and for small empires, a library can be built before a courthouse in a commerce city, and that is the best play. That is a special case the OP should be aware of, but after that exception, what other economic building would be better than a courthouse? a market won't help much with a high slider.

The utility of a library is fully appreciated by me, it is one of my favourite buildings and is the most cost effective economic building in early cities ... after the courthouse :p Obviously there is a period of the game when a library is available before a courthouse and I certainly build them then, but that is outside the scope of the OP's question ;)

However, I hope that we can agree that even if you do build your library in a commerce city first, then the next infrastructure should be a courthouse (especially as you advocate deficit research techniques and saving gold will lengthen the period of 100% research ... and a market won't help much anyway). I would build them the other way round, courthouse and then library, then catch up with some deficit research, with gold I'd saved from the lowered slider ;) But to be fair deficit research is an economic strategy for the whole empire rather than an individual city and a developing city has to fit in as best it can into the overall plan.

Deficit research is one of the most interesting topics and a lot of people make the mistake of assuming that building a library in their commerce cities will make a huge difference, but that effect is small typically only giving maybe a 15% advantage if only libraries are involved. That's hardly earth shattering and due to a common misconception (which I'm sure you are not guilty of :) ) that libraries boost overall research by 25% when this is diluted by other cities with no library where commerce has a zero multiplier.

Take an early empire with several cities and note the beakers and gold, now lower the slider and note the change in beakers and gold. The beakers decrease by X and the gold increases by Y, then the global transfer function of gold to beakers is X/Y. That takes account of all the commerce in all cities weighted by their economic multipliers and the distribution of commerce. It is most affected by good commerce cities combined with good multipliers, all fairly obvious I'm sure.

What I've found when going for a serious period of deficit research is that it really only matters when you have a couple of good cities with good commerce and good multipliers (for the age); a library here and there doesn't get that X/Y ratio up enough. I notice that in a push towards Liberalism a capital running Bureaucracy with an academy, library and a monastery or two plus another nice commerce city with library, monastery and villages can lift that X/Y ratio up to about 1.5. At that stage it is certainly better value (long term) to build Wealth rather than Science since 1 hammer gives 1.5 beakers. Failure gold on wonders (with resource) can be worth 3 beakers per hammer invested and it is worthwhile selling off old techs at a loss to fund research of new ones. A round of begging from friends can be timely.

Courthouses help the above scenario because they help keep the gold to fund research rather than leeching it away on maintenance. Saving gold allows the period of deficit to run for longer and hence translates directly into the same X/Y ratio over time. It doesn't boost the X/Y ratio, like another library would, but it does allow the deficit research to run for longer and can translate into more beakers than a library would.

Now into this happy situation (described above) let's insert a little problem. Say we've just founded (what will be) a new commerce city in the jungle. It has banana and spice and loads of riverside, a cottage heaven - in the longer term. We have 4 workers busily chopping and building improvements. Well worth founding our 10th city here, even in the middle of the Liberalism race (when I usually go heads down for the killer military tech). But after whipping the obligatory granary what do we build in our period of 100% deficit research? It will be hard to justify a library before courthouse here and now. The best contribution this city will make to the race is the extra happy and health and by keeping costs as low as possible. Unless we really do have gold to burn, which I'll guess is your counter argument :p
 
Courthouses build as soon as I get CoL. But I only whip in my furthest cities (usually only 1-3 depending on how well I REXed or rushed). It's the last step in correcting my economy before a little further expansion or a turtle/tech run.

If running an EE, courthouses everywhere especially capital (where my GSp is usually settled).
 
Courthouses give you more money to expand. You need a few of them before your 6th/ 7th city. Since they are giving you a bonus to your empire as a whole and not to the specific city, there's no priority to build them in your new cities- invariably a new city has a greater need for a Theater, Forge or Granary.

Your wording might just be confusing me but what do you mean? A Courthouse reduces the maintenance by 50% in the city which it is built. Of course the bonus ultimately benefits your empire as a whole but kind of strange way to put it.
 
But after whipping the obligatory granary what do we build in our period of 100% deficit research? It will be hard to justify a library before courthouse here and now. The best contribution this city will make to the race is the extra happy and health and by keeping costs as low as possible. Unless we really do have gold to burn, which I'll guess is your counter argument :p

What about building wealth?
 
I agree; that in a few instances, and for small empires, a library can be built before a courthouse in a commerce city, and that is the best play. That is a special case the OP should be aware of, but after that exception, what other economic building would be better than a courthouse? a market won't help much with a high slider.

The utility of a library is fully appreciated by me, it is one of my favourite buildings and is the most cost effective economic building in early cities ... after the courthouse :p Obviously there is a period of the game when a library is available before a courthouse and I certainly build them then, but that is outside the scope of the OP's question ;)

However, I hope that we can agree that even if you do build your library in a commerce city first, then the next infrastructure should be a courthouse (especially as you advocate deficit research techniques and saving gold will lengthen the period of 100% research ... and a market won't help much anyway). I would build them the other way round, courthouse and then library, then catch up with some deficit research, with gold I'd saved from the lowered slider ;) But to be fair deficit research is an economic strategy for the whole empire rather than an individual city and a developing city has to fit in as best it can into the overall plan.

Deficit research is one of the most interesting topics and a lot of people make the mistake of assuming that building a library in their commerce cities will make a huge difference, but that effect is small typically only giving maybe a 15% advantage if only libraries are involved. That's hardly earth shattering and due to a common misconception (which I'm sure you are not guilty of :) ) that libraries boost overall research by 25% when this is diluted by other cities with no library where commerce has a zero multiplier.

Take an early empire with several cities and note the beakers and gold, now lower the slider and note the change in beakers and gold. The beakers decrease by X and the gold increases by Y, then the global transfer function of gold to beakers is X/Y. That takes account of all the commerce in all cities weighted by their economic multipliers and the distribution of commerce. It is most affected by good commerce cities combined with good multipliers, all fairly obvious I'm sure.

What I've found when going for a serious period of deficit research is that it really only matters when you have a couple of good cities with good commerce and good multipliers (for the age); a library here and there doesn't get that X/Y ratio up enough. I notice that in a push towards Liberalism a capital running Bureaucracy with an academy, library and a monastery or two plus another nice commerce city with library, monastery and villages can lift that X/Y ratio up to about 1.5. At that stage it is certainly better value (long term) to build Wealth rather than Science since 1 hammer gives 1.5 beakers. Failure gold on wonders (with resource) can be worth 3 beakers per hammer invested and it is worthwhile selling off old techs at a loss to fund research of new ones. A round of begging from friends can be timely.

Courthouses help the above scenario because they help keep the gold to fund research rather than leeching it away on maintenance. Saving gold allows the period of deficit to run for longer and hence translates directly into the same X/Y ratio over time. It doesn't boost the X/Y ratio, like another library would, but it does allow the deficit research to run for longer and can translate into more beakers than a library would.

Now into this happy situation (described above) let's insert a little problem. Say we've just founded (what will be) a new commerce city in the jungle. It has banana and spice and loads of riverside, a cottage heaven - in the longer term. We have 4 workers busily chopping and building improvements. Well worth founding our 10th city here, even in the middle of the Liberalism race (when I usually go heads down for the killer military tech). But after whipping the obligatory granary what do we build in our period of 100% deficit research? It will be hard to justify a library before courthouse here and now. The best contribution this city will make to the race is the extra happy and health and by keeping costs as low as possible. Unless we really do have gold to burn, which I'll guess is your counter argument :p

Other potentially superior econ buildings:
1. Grain (obvious)
2. Lighthouse (most often in the case where water tiles are your only potential :food: surplus either until CS or Biology).
3. AP/UoS/SM religious buildings (mons vs temple depends upon how valuable the happy cap is vs slider percentage - among other things).
4. Forge (you normally need to have a few things going for it, like a good happy cap utility function, AP buildings to boost, a high :hammers: tile that can "borrowed" from an overlapping :hammers: city, being IND, or have/soon have US towns/levees - mostly conquest cities here)
5. Harbor (almost always a GLH strat with early overseas AI trade or an astro city; though I tend to more often make those :hammers: cites if I'm not going to have the whip option).
6. Monument (CHA only).
7. Market (this is rare, but with all 4 happy resources it will often be your most efficient way to increase the happy cap and gain another 4 tiles you can work; also modding up the cash value does help you drive the slider higher for your superior :science: modifiers in other cities).

As far as your scenario racing to lib, well I'd be tempted to say mons and be certain to say it if we are talking about the AP/UoS/SM one. The payback time for either a CH or a Lib is going to be fairly long and the whip needed to bang the CH out is rather harsh - killing some 2 :commerce: tiles, let alone villages or hamlets, while waiting for regrowth may do more to hurt than anything else. On the flip side whipping a mons is cheap and quick.

And you are right, CH vs any of the science multipliers is going to depend upon how much cash you have to burn (or more aptly how much you have and how much you can expect to get).

My normal build order is:
1. Grain
2. Border pop (artists, build culture, lib, monument if needed).
3. Best of the above list not already built (with CH/Lib being the two most common at the top for true commerce cities).
 
However, I hope that we can agree that even if you do build your library in a commerce city first, then the next infrastructure should be a courthouse (especially as you advocate deficit research techniques and saving gold will lengthen the period of 100% research ... and a market won't help much anyway). I would build them the other way round, courthouse and then library, then catch up with some deficit research, with gold I'd saved from the lowered slider ;) But to be fair deficit research is an economic strategy for the whole empire rather than an individual city and a developing city has to fit in as best it can into the overall plan.

This is like awarding a Silver Medal to an arbitrary runner in a race who does not win the Gold Medal.

A Library is great for early economy for a few reasons:

1) It unlocks 2 scientist specialists

2) It provides a science bonus

3) It provides a culture bonus

The Courthouse has similar effects: it unlocks 1 spy specialist, provides a maintenance bonus, and provides an espionage bonus.

Ultimately, it all comes down to the question, "How much money will the Courthouse save me?". The general experience of many forumers here including me is that in the very common case of a 6-city empire, with no cities located very far from the capital, the gold savings from the Courthouse is just not enough.

Now, the Library is often built for reasons aside from the science bonus--namely, the 2 scientist slots and the culture bonus. But in the early stage of the game we are considering here, I would reckon that very few players (high-level included) would value the 1 spy as anywhere near the 2 scientists, or the 2 espionage as anywhere near the 2 culture of the library.

The truth of the matter is, a Courthouse is built for one primary reason that greatly overshadows the others, whereas a Library is built for multiple reasons that can each alone justify the cost of the library. When the one reason for building a Courthouse has decreased value (usually from having fewer cities), the Courthouse takes a huge dip in value compared to almost all other buildings.
 
What about building wealth?
I see building wealth at this stage of the game to be primarily a stop-gap measure. For most cities building wealth will be more productive today than building infrastructure. The problem is, when you stop building wealth, you lose all the benefits of it...not true of a courthouse (or market for that matter in a low science slider situation).
 
I see building wealth at this stage of the game to be primarily a stop-gap measure. For most cities building wealth will be more productive today than building infrastructure. The problem is, when you stop building wealth, you lose all the benefits of it...not true of a courthouse (or market for that matter in a low science slider situation).

You do not lose the benefits of access to earlier techs, civics, etc, and you only lose the gold provided if you burn it on something.
 
What about building wealth?

I imagined, but didn't specify, that the jungle city only had 1 hammer so it doesn't do a lot either way. I usually put that hammer towards the granary and courthouse as with high food income, OR and the overflows that usually means a 2 pop whip for the granary and a 3 pop whip for the courthouse at size 6.

------------------
My comments in Bold

Other potentially superior econ buildings:

1. Grain (obvious)
Already built 95% of the time, before any other infrastructure.

2. Lighthouse (most often in the case where water tiles are your only potential :food: surplus either until CS or Biology).
Agreed but it's not a real commerce city, more likely to be whipping city or GP farm


3. AP/UoS/SM religious buildings (mons vs temple depends upon how valuable the happy cap is vs slider percentage - among other things).
They do give good returns if you can get more than one of them to apply to your religious buildings. A special case that is hard to argue with. However, they tend to come to fruition after the Liberalism race for me. UoS usually finishes as I'm starting to research Liberalism. I am often struggling with universities for Oxford at this time too. Generally I am not at war or founding new cities, just making the ones I have better. Hopefully courthouses will already be in place, otherwise this is a dilemma

4. Forge (you normally need to have a few things going for it, like a good happy cap utility function, AP buildings to boost, a high :hammers: tile that can "borrowed" from an overlapping :hammers: city, being IND, or have/soon have US towns/levees - mostly conquest cities here)
Very unlikely in a new commerce city that I would build a forge before other infrastructure, especially a courthouse. Your list of special cases are similar to mine.

5. Harbor (almost always a GLH strat with early overseas AI trade or an astro city; though I tend to more often make those :hammers: cites if I'm not going to have the whip option).
A GLH strategy often leads to a coastal spam and when you've 14 weak coastal cities courthouses are essential for economic recovery. I look at it as a way to fund a grab for loads of land / islands, a super REX rather than an economy. The slider often stays low for a long time but lots of cities all giving a few beakers still give a good tech rate.

Actually harbours need to be used very carefully and not built willy-nilly as they can pull good trade routes onto weaker cities with few economic multipliers. The way harbours work needs to be studied carefully as city sizes (both sender and recipient) are important. A harbour on it's own will not usually increase the value of a trade route until cities start getting above size 10


6. Monument (CHA only).
7. Market (this is rare, but with all 4 happy resources it will often be your most efficient way to increase the happy cap and gain another 4 tiles you can work; also modding up the cash value does help you drive the slider higher for your superior :science: modifiers in other cities).
Happiness is important and can overrule short term economic considerations. We're sacrificing gold to gain size
Overall, this is a list of the obvious buildings but in special circumstances. I was restricting myself to basic economic buildings for a commerce city in the early game. They come from a short list, library, market, monastery and courthouse and from those four, a courthouse usually wins as soon as you have 10 cities or more, and a library for less than 6 cities.
As far as your scenario racing to lib, well I'd be tempted to say mons and be certain to say it if we are talking about the AP/UoS/SM one. The payback time for either a CH or a Lib is going to be fairly long and the whip needed to bang the CH out is rather harsh - killing some 2 :commerce: tiles, let alone villages or hamlets, while waiting for regrowth may do more to hurt than anything else. On the flip side whipping a mons is cheap and quick.
The AP/UoS/SM options tend to come late in the Liberalism race for me. They certainly take off afterwards along with Oxford. I try to use ordinary monasteries in my best commerce cities, they have the same %bonus /hammer return as observatories and markets. They are especially good with a deficit research period and even if they do get obsoleted can be well worth building instead of Wealth. Later in the game commerce cities can spam missionaries as they're cheap enough to build
And you are right, CH vs any of the science multipliers is going to depend upon how much cash you have to burn (or more aptly how much you have and how much you can expect to get).
I knew you'd appreciate this the same way I do :p
My normal build order is:
1. Grain
2. Border pop (artists, build culture, lib, monument if needed).
3. Best of the above list not already built (with CH/Lib being the two most common at the top for true commerce cities).

Quoted in agreement. What have we been arguing about? :lol:
 
I see building wealth at this stage of the game to be primarily a stop-gap measure. For most cities building wealth will be more productive today than building infrastructure. The problem is, when you stop building wealth, you lose all the benefits of it...not true of a courthouse (or market for that matter in a low science slider situation).

What we are looking at here a question of return over time. Infra requires that you spend :hammers: up front for (hopefully) a reward in the future. For instance the CH costs you the a good part of a tech in terms of production, but will save you a non-trivial amount of :commerce: over the course of the game. Obviously the earlier we build infra, the greater its overall return, ceteris parabis. To optimize the max amount of "stuff" you get from a city you want to build the infra first and then hammer the gold.

However the above assumes a continuous economy with no break points; this is an unrealistic assumption. Getting things like communism, lib, corporation, and astro can provide instant payouts so while a CH might be a better economic play over the next 30 turns, something discontinuous happens in 15 and makes building wealth more optimal.

The benefit of building wealth is getting to the next economic milestone quicker. E.g. you get corporation a turn sooner and pick up +5 :commerce: per city and get WS a turn sooner - say for +20 :gold:; you get out of strike sooner; you upgrade all your CRIII trebs to cannons. All of these make the long run return higher for a "short term" investment.

Parceling out what is the most efficient move in theory is quite difficult, you must either be fairly vague and abstract (CHs are better than libs if you have high maintenance); or very specific and determined (Libs are better than CHs when you have 6 city empire, don't have a use for EP, and have lots of :commerce: becoming :science:).

I've had an immort game where the best move has been to get grains, hippodromes (I desperately need the happiness as I was in total war mode with PS, Slavery, Vassal, and Theo) and CHs ... and then to build wealth to try to dial up EP/culture. HA rush became Catas + spies which took me to domination (capping my last victim right after he got rifling). This was one of those games where keeping the "rush" alive meant I had to dump massive amounts of production into gold; but running around with CV catas made it worthwhile.
 
Agreed but it's not a real commerce city, more likely to be whipping city or GP farm
??? I think we are thinking of different cities here. I'm going for one with 6 water tiles - including a fish and the rest of the BFC being flat green land (maybe covered in jungle initially) without wet tiles in the BFC. LH allows me to go for +6 :food: surplus while cottages everywhere else; a 20% increase in growth rate makes for faster whips of things ... like CHs and libs ... and lets me grow out to work my 14 green cottages quicker; a city with 111 potential raw :commerce: certainly counts as a commerce city in my book. For a sizeable bit of jungle terrain the only potential food surplus pre CS is seafood and I want more cottages being worked sooner.

Likewise offshore green islands can make good commerce cities if there is a complete lack of irrigation sources. Boosting a single crab is for beneficial than the CH in the long run.

Argueably the infamous seafood/fur tundra locations are strong early :commerce: cities where a LH can mean working more fur, sooner. If CS is a long way off (e.g. I'm running out to an early Astro double bulb); then the lighthouse trumps everything but the grain for pretty much unirragatable land.

They do give good returns if you can get more than one of them to apply to your religious buildings. A special case that is hard to argue with. However, they tend to come to fruition after the Liberalism race for me. UoS usually finishes as I'm starting to research Liberalism. I am often struggling with universities for Oxford at this time too. Generally I am not at war or founding new cities, just making the ones I have better. Hopefully courthouses will already be in place, otherwise this is a dilemma
Meh, even a quick whip of a mons can repay itself in time for lib; normally these come up when an AI starts giving me more religions to maximize their shrine. UoS can be finished long before Lib if I "slow" research edu and the AP I've either made a cornerstone of my strategy or the AI has kindly built it for me. +10% is nothing to sneeze at for an easy whip, +2 :hammers: (alone) offsets most of the advantage of CHs.

Frankly if Lib is that tight I'm screwing ALL buildings and going for wealth; if all this production is whip driven, then I'm going to base my decisions more off of how soon can I whip this, than what will this give me?

I'm not really sure where you are going with this, if we are talking about new cities, then mons should be on the table, if we are talking about built up core "struggling to get unis" then all of these should already be in (barring thinks like really harsh REX recovery; but those types of things make building choices almost trivial).

A GLH strategy often leads to a coastal spam and when you've 14 weak coastal cities courthouses are essential for economic recovery. I look at it as a way to fund a grab for loads of land / islands, a super REX rather than an economy. The slider often stays low for a long time but lots of cities all giving a few beakers still give a good tech rate.

Actually harbours need to be used very carefully and not built willy-nilly as they can pull good trade routes onto weaker cities with few economic multipliers. The way harbours work needs to be studied carefully as city sizes (both sender and recipient) are important. A harbour on it's own will not usually increase the value of a trade route until cities start getting above size 10

Depends, I'm a fan of the GLH -> bulb astro line, particularly in isolation. This can make for very late CoL for the obvious reason; making the cities large and trade routes highly lucrative. I cannot recall a single time when I've had early overseas trade with an AI where building a harbor failed to improve my economy (and often by extremely large amounts).

Quoted in agreement. What have we been arguing about?
At root, your tendency to assume mirror imaging by other players. My book says empire sizes closer to 6 are more common than those closer to 10 where lib vs CH is going to be an issue - you seem to be of the opposite opinion.

At a meta-level because teasing out the assumptions and details makes for good reading and, I hope, more knowledge for other people in the thread who can't beat monarch (emp?) in their sleep.
 
You do not lose the benefits of access to earlier techs, civics, etc, and you only lose the gold provided if you burn it on something.
If you got earlier techs, you already burned the gold on something (the slider). Once a courthouse or market is up, it will continue to yield benefits on every turn for the remainder of the game.

I'm not saying that a courthouse (and certainly not a market) is worth building over wealth in most cases early in the game...there is just an opportunity cost with either choice. Generally speaking, the higher the difficulty level, the more inclined I am to build wealth, as getting those early techs fast is very important. If a couple opponents beat you to aesthetics, it's likely you'll get fewer techs for it in trade. At levels up to about Monarch, out-teching the AIs is not particularly hard, assuming one is building enough cottages.
 
??? I think we are thinking of different cities here. I'm going for one with 6 water tiles - including a fish and the rest of the BFC being flat green land (maybe covered in jungle initially) without wet tiles in the BFC. LH allows me to go for +6 :food: surplus while cottages everywhere else; a 20% increase in growth rate makes for faster whips of things ... like CHs and libs ... and lets me grow out to work my 14 green cottages quicker; a city with 111 potential raw :commerce: certainly counts as a commerce city in my book. For a sizeable bit of jungle terrain the only potential food surplus pre CS is seafood and I want more cottages being worked sooner.
I did misunderstand the type of city you had in mind. What you describe is certainly a commerce city. However, with only 1 seafood in the BFC the lighthouse only really gives +1 food, since I'll not want to work a coastal tile while there is a cottage to grow (even though it might take 10 turns to give 2 commerce). Is 60 hammers for a lighthouse worth more than an earlier library or courthouse? it's not an obvious choice and depends on the stage of the game and what is needed from this city. That +1 food will take a long time to pay back the lighthouse investment. If it was 2 seafood then I'd go for the lighthouse first and +2 useful food to fuel whipping and growth, that would be a good city.

Likewise offshore green islands can make good commerce cities if there is a complete lack of irrigation sources. Boosting a single crab is for beneficial than the CH in the long run.
Obviously depends on how many cottages they can have. You must play different maps from me.:( Most islands seem to only have 4 grasslands and 3 desert, a seafood and then coastal tiles. A weak commerce city that I only build up if I'm desperate for income. After Chemistry I often build workshops on them and turn them into whip / draft cities.
Argueably the infamous seafood/fur tundra locations are strong early :commerce: cities where a LH can mean working more fur, sooner. If CS is a long way off (e.g. I'm running out to an early Astro double bulb); then the lighthouse trumps everything but the grain for pretty much unirragatable land.
Again it depends on the number of seafood. With 1 seafood you only gain 1 food until you have to work the coastal tiles. A granary first and then either a courthouse or lighthouse. It's not clear to me that the lighthouse is better than a courthouse - that obviously depends on how much the courthouse saves; which is maintenance and inflation dependent. In some of these low food situations a lighthouse would have to be whipped before the courthouse since only coastal tiles are food neutral and getting to size 6 for a 3 pop whip of the courthouse would not be possible otherwise.

Meh, even a quick whip of a mons can repay itself in time for lib; normally these come up when an AI starts giving me more religions to maximize their shrine. UoS can be finished long before Lib if I "slow" research edu and the AP I've either made a cornerstone of my strategy or the AI has kindly built it for me. +10% is nothing to sneeze at for an easy whip, +2 :hammers: (alone) offsets most of the advantage of CHs.


Frankly if Lib is that tight I'm screwing ALL buildings and going for wealth; if all this production is whip driven, then I'm going to base my decisions more off of how soon can I whip this, than what will this give me?

I'm not really sure where you are going with this, if we are talking about new cities, then mons should be on the table, if we are talking about built up core "struggling to get unis" then all of these should already be in (barring thinks like really harsh REX recovery; but those types of things make building choices almost trivial).
I usually lightbulb part or all of Education so I'm well into Liberalism before I can build UoS even with stone and a good production city. That means any boosts from monasteries or temples of the state religion have a small impact on the outcome. I like monasteries in my commerce cities, the +10% for only 60 hammers is good value especially in deficit research. Having a few (obsolete) monasteries is useful in the late game when using spies and running Nationhood and Theocracy (EPs and drafting powergame) as having my state religion in his city can give big discounts on espionage missions (even more with the shrine). Manipulating religions with espionage is powerful in the lategame.

In recent games I seldom get all three of the AP/UoS/SM until after Sci Method has made monasteries obsolete. I frequently build UoS, seldom build AP, although I do get it spread to me, 1 game in 3 maybe, and SM is always a prime target for an invasion with cannons plus whatever I can scrape together. That usually means I end up with temples being the only widespread building getting all three bonusses and it's well into the end game, useful but not gamebreaking.

Depends, I'm a fan of the GLH -> bulb astro line, particularly in isolation. This can make for very late CoL for the obvious reason; making the cities large and trade routes highly lucrative. I cannot recall a single time when I've had early overseas trade with an AI where building a harbor failed to improve my economy (and often by extremely large amounts).
I'm not sure what the "obvious reason" is :blush: perhaps you'll explain. I have studied the effects of trade based games extensively and have written a lot about the GLH. For me leveraging the GLH depends a lot on how you manage the domestic trade routes rather than the foreign ones. For instance if you only have 15 cities and they each have 4 trade routes you need 60 foriegn cities if they are all to be lucrative. Typically taking account of war, diplomatic problems and Mercantilism I'm lucky to get 20 foriegn routes (and I'd have all of them with or without the GLH). The GLH effectively adds 30 domestic trade routes to the economy and shifts a few foriegn routes (sometimes to better cities).

The harbour can add +1 commerce to some foriegn trade routes but not others.
The usual trade factors affecting the value of trade routes are:
+25% connection to capital
+100% overseas
+150% foriegn trade (actually grows 3% / turn after a war)
+50% harbour

For a basic foriegn city of size 10 (or less) it would give 3 commerce without a harbour and 4 commerce with it. A harbour helps here

But if the foriegn city was size 11 (so trade route base value is 1.1) then it would give 4 commerce without the harbour and a harbour would not add enough to take it to the next level. (so your recollection is not good ;) )

The size of own city also adds +5% for each pop over 10. So if our city is size 15 city it gets +25% that combines with the connection to capital bonus and a size 10 foriegn city gives 4 commerce (so again a harbour is not useful for this trade route)

Trade routes are a complicated subject and thinking that a harbour always helps is not true :(. In fact it can hurt large inland cities with good economic modifiers. A weak coastal city can have better trade modifiers due to a harbour and hence get better trade routes than an inland capital with Oxford and an academy. This is not desireable.
At root, your tendency to assume mirror imaging by other players. My book says empire sizes closer to 6 are more common than those closer to 10 where lib vs CH is going to be an issue - you seem to be of the opposite opinion.

At a meta-level because teasing out the assumptions and details makes for good reading and, I hope, more knowledge for other people in the thread who can't beat monarch (emp?) in their sleep.
Sure, I hope our discussing these ideas helps other people.
 
My replies are in bold
I did misunderstand the type of city you had in mind. What you describe is certainly a commerce city. However, with only 1 seafood in the BFC the lighthouse only really gives +1 food, since I'll not want to work a coastal tile while there is a cottage to grow (even though it might take 10 turns to give 2 commerce). Is 60 hammers for a lighthouse worth more than an earlier library or courthouse? it's not an obvious choice and depends on the stage of the game and what is needed from this city. That +1 food will take a long time to pay back the lighthouse investment. If it was 2 seafood then I'd go for the lighthouse first and +2 useful food to fuel whipping and growth, that would be a good city.

In the short run the CH can win; but in the short run cash can beat the CH so I find that long term I want the +1 food for getting to (more)towns faster. This is more about working more tiles and growing cottages faster; for one seafood we can debate specific instances; for two the lighthouse is normally superior to the CH.

Obviously depends on how many cottages they can have. You must play different maps from me.:( Most islands seem to only have 4 grasslands and 3 desert, a seafood and then coastal tiles. A weak commerce city that I only build up if I'm desperate for income. After Chemistry I often build workshops on them and turn them into whip / draft cities.
I play a lot of fractal and shuffles with the odd tectonics/ice age thrown in. I get games where I think I have a large landmass if it fits 3 cities and I've had pangeas where I literally couldn't REX to the coast. Most of the time I cottage if I know I'm going to be going for a rushbuy economy or if I get to the island really early - I can either whip, use it as a lousy GP farm, or cottage it.

Again it depends on the number of seafood. With 1 seafood you only gain 1 food until you have to work the coastal tiles. A granary first and then either a courthouse or lighthouse. It's not clear to me that the lighthouse is better than a courthouse - that obviously depends on how much the courthouse saves; which is maintenance and inflation dependent. In some of these low food situations a lighthouse would have to be whipped before the courthouse since only coastal tiles are food neutral and getting to size 6 for a 3 pop whip of the courthouse would not be possible otherwise.

I build the LH for one of two reasons - I have a lot of cottages to work soon and the :food: let's me grow much faster or I want to whip expensive things (like CHs) and the LH makes that more efficient


I usually lightbulb part or all of Education so I'm well into Liberalism before I can build UoS even with stone and a good production city. That means any boosts from monasteries or temples of the state religion have a small impact on the outcome. I like monasteries in my commerce cities, the +10% for only 60 hammers is good value especially in deficit research. Having a few (obsolete) monasteries is useful in the late game when using spies and running Nationhood and Theocracy (EPs and drafting powergame) as having my state religion in his city can give big discounts on espionage missions (even more with the shrine). Manipulating religions with espionage is powerful in the lategame.

In recent games I seldom get all three of the AP/UoS/SM until after Sci Method has made monasteries obsolete. I frequently build UoS, seldom build AP, although I do get it spread to me, 1 game in 3 maybe, and SM is always a prime target for an invasion with cannons plus whatever I can scrape together. That usually means I end up with temples being the only widespread building getting all three bonusses and it's well into the end game, useful but not gamebreaking.


I'm not sure what the "obvious reason" is :blush: perhaps you'll explain. I have studied the effects of trade based games extensively and have written a lot about the GLH. For me leveraging the GLH depends a lot on how you manage the domestic trade routes rather than the foreign ones. For instance if you only have 15 cities and they each have 4 trade routes you need 60 foriegn cities if they are all to be lucrative. Typically taking account of war, diplomatic problems and Mercantilism I'm lucky to get 20 foriegn routes (and I'd have all of them with or without the GLH). The GLH effectively adds 30 domestic trade routes to the economy and shifts a few foriegn routes (sometimes to better cities).

When you want to bulb astro you need to gimmick with the techs open; for instance philo gets bulbed before astro. Avoiding CoL can make it far easier to push out the bottom path, quickly, and get the bulb to Astro. Virtually all of the time this is before banking; if you can get to econ or better communism (which comes quick and easy off a swap to the lib path) before the AIs get heavy into rep, then a lot of AIs will stay out of merc.

Wars, well those are just opportunity cost questions until the AIs get Astro.


The harbour can add +1 commerce to some foriegn trade routes but not others.
The usual trade factors affecting the value of trade routes are:
+25% connection to capital
+100% overseas
+150% foriegn trade (actually grows 3% / turn after a war)
+50% harbour

For a basic foriegn city of size 10 (or less) it would give 3 commerce without a harbour and 4 commerce with it. A harbour helps here

But if the foriegn city was size 11 (so trade route base value is 1.1) then it would give 4 commerce without the harbour and a harbour would not add enough to take it to the next level. (so your recollection is not good ;) )

Is the actual value truncated or does it just display the truncation? My point more is I've never finished building a harbor and watched my net output drop.

The size of own city also adds +5% for each pop over 10. So if our city is size 15 city it gets +25% that combines with the connection to capital bonus and a size 10 foriegn city gives 4 commerce (so again a harbour is not useful for this trade route)

Trade routes are a complicated subject and thinking that a harbour always helps is not true :(. In fact it can hurt large inland cities with good economic modifiers. A weak coastal city can have better trade modifiers due to a harbour and hence get better trade routes than an inland capital with Oxford and an academy. This is not desireable.
I have never witnessed this. Whenever I've built a harbor my reported net output has increased or stayed stagnate; an actual overall fall is something I have never seen (note with heavy CE play this may just be the cottage growth disguising such); I'm not saying that a harbor is necessarily better, just that it ranks up there. Getting one :commerce: per trade route + health can be better than the savings off a CH' the cheaper cost and easier whip is also a factor.

Sure, I hope our discussing these ideas helps other people.
 
barrack + stable > courthouse. You can get by until communism selling techs and then courthouses are useless.
 
You don't need to avoid CoL to avoid bulbing philosophy. If you don't have meditation, theology, or civil service you will bulb towards astro rather than towards philosophy or liberalism.
 
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