When do you go on the offensive?

[DGDobrev]

Hi guys!

I am very interested to know everyone's opinion when do players go on the offensive, and do you do it at all. I play Deity, but I would appreciate everyone's input. Most of my games up until now were won by science or culture, and I really need to find that stone, which turns the cart over and makes you say - "Damn you, now you're gonna get it!!!"

This is even worse if you are trying to compete for faster victory, as key National Wonders like NC, Oxford, Hermitage (50% culture boost is game-breaking!!!), Ironworks (helps a lot) require you to build the prerequisite structure in every city - and I don't like seeing my next policy taking 25+ turns to get. One gets some leverage with Radio, but it is rather deep in the tech tree...

For me, usually that stone is a civ which DoW's you all of a sudden, plays the bully just to find out how weak they are should I decide to go on the offensive. Another thing that ticks me off is when someone starts stealing a tech every few turns just cause the AI gives them better chances (lvl 3 agent vs lvl 1 agent and the same civ steals successfully 2 times in a few turns to even the playing field? Come on!).

The thing is, I found early offensive to be self-defeating in the end. You may get some success, but first, obliterating a civ gets you a penalty, dowing first and taking cities makes you a warmonger, and finally, some civs simply can't cope with the unhappiness hit as they have few happiness boosting options. Going into big unhappiness hinders your advances too, forcing you to stop and recuperate before pushing forward, and that sometimes is a bad idea, especially if you fight an evenly matched civ. This gives them time to switch to military techs, and you may find yourself pausing for 10 turns just to find your Longswordsmen/Crossbowmen push halted by Musketeers or Gatlings - and that's BAD.

So how do you find the balance???

 

[Socratatus]

I actually try very hard not to go offensive. In fact, I try to have a peaceful game even if its not very exciting right to the end.

It`s only when I am attacked unprovoked by a Civ that`s decided it wants my lands that I turn the heat up and go all out for it. I will usually leave the attacking Civ either dead or with just one city left, if possible. I save all my rage for unprovoked attacks!

 

[mintcandy]

Hi guys!

I am very interested to know everyone's opinion when do players go on the offensive, and do you do it at all. I play Deity, but I would appreciate everyone's input. Most of my games up until now were won by science or culture, and I really need to find that stone, which turns the cart over and makes you say - "Damn you, now you're gonna get it!!!"

I tend to play anywhere from King to Emperor, and I don't have Gods and Kings.

I'm going to interpret "going on the offensive" as "when to start concentrating on taking the cities of the enemy."

The answer to THAT is "whenever I can secure a path for my ranged units to get into position to soften up the enemy's cities WITHOUT the ranged units taking damage AND when the enemy isn't threatening any of my major cities."

The natural followup question to my answer is "Okay, what era/turn count do YOU satisfy those conditions?"

The answer: it really depends on the circumstances.

I like going on the offensive when I've successfully destroyed an enemy's offensive in my territory and the enemy's territory is close to mine, because it means that my units won't have much opposition when counter invading the enemy.

I also find it questionable to refrain from seizing any enemy city to build the Hermitage. While the Hermitage is nice, one has to keep in mind that every turn spent focusing on infrastructure is a turn that the enemy is allowed to build defenses unmolested. Not seizing any enemy cities until the Renaissance is a LONG time to let all the AI civs build up.

:: shrugs ::

 

[DGDobrev]

I personally find the Hermitage kinda crucial, as by the time it is built (anywhere from T125 to T145), one should be pushing his way to Gatlings and left side Rationalism (and hopefully a GE for PT, or at least good production) for better RA's. Hermitage helps pop the +17% BPT from Uni's and the +50% from RA policies much faster, which usually means a good game

EDIT: To elaborate, using the Tradition 2 to 4-city opening, all cities should have uni's by this time and if they are situated in decent areas (good food and production growth), it makes for a wicked boost in BPT value, especially if you can slap a few specialists in.

 

[mintcandy]

I personally find the Hermitage kinda crucial...

I'm not saying that the Hermitage is bad. More Social Policies are always better, and the Hermitage helps get more Social Policies.

I'm just saying that refraining from seizing ANY cities before the Hermitage is built seems a bit restrictive. It's like refraining from attacking a weak neighbor that has lots of luxuries until you have built 20 GDRs. I mean, you could, but if you could cripple the neighbor in the Medieval Age, why would you purposely wait until the Future Age to do the same thing?

What's wrong with seizing cities before Opera Houses can be built? And by seizing, I mean either making them puppets or razing them outright.

 

[GhostSalsa]

I personally find the Hermitage kinda crucial, as by the time it is built (anywhere from T125 to T145), [...]
EDIT: To elaborate, using the Tradition 2 to 4-city opening, all cities should have uni's by this time and if they are situated in decent areas (good food and production growth), it makes for a wicked boost in BPT value, especially if you can slap a few specialists in.

Well ok, I def never get hermitage up on T125. This all sounds like something you are doing with Korea or Inca that would not fall together for other civs. I only play Immortal but if I haven't started conquering by physics then I can expect to lose. My own starting cities are NOT generating enough production on their own to finish prerequisites for national wonders that early (and meanwhile build an army strong enough to keep friends friendly).

Just building buildings means I have no gold and no trading partners (I find warmonger penalties are worse when you are perpetually fending off multiple neighbors compared to a clean, quick conquest of one neighbor).

Anyway puppet cities are free culture.

To answer the original question:

Conquest starts either as early as catapults or right before physics.

That is first push and puts me on level playing field with AI. Second push puts me on top and is right before dynamite which I prioritize heavily. My finishes may not be great turnwise but I usually enjoy racking up a big score with a medium-tier civ (Japan or Celts) more.

That said, I actually finished a game with TOTAL PEACE start to finish for the first time last week. Monty, Immortal, Standard Speed, Large, Continents, 7 founded cities. Part of that peace was constantly keeping up with opposing army sizes.

 

[woodshadows]

Deity domination is hard, unless it's on duel, otherwise I find there just never is enough time in the game to work my way through all the units/cities I have to fight (note: this does not include mongols or arabia, keshiks and camel archers can tear through enemies very quickly, even on deity). I generally prefer medieval warfare anyhow, I'll play defensive until then, trying to ensure I have my cities up and running, a strong economy, etc. If I go to war in classical, even if I manage a successful campaign I always end up with a backwards economy, because all my production was put towards units rather than infrastructure.

 

[Demmian]

Well , it depends on the situation because every game is quite unique . I guess the first serious offensive comes with catapults , but it really depends on if there is a reason to go on offensive . Leaving a neigbour weak (especially if he is an aggressive one) , grabbing some new lux/strat resources or open up space for future expands , all seem valid reasons to me to start an early war and usually I stop when I get what I wanted initially . Some times I may just go on the offensive for the sake of an alliance I want to maintain. Not starting a war with a neigbour when I believe I have the upper hand seems irrational .
I hope this doesn't mark me as a warmonger

 

[PibbZ]

It all depends, but if I have a nearby neighbour with a decent capital, I try to take him out arround the arrival of catapults. But again, this depends on a lot, neighbours, tech, pantheons, resources and my victory plan.

I never decleare without catapults however.

 

[Gamewizard]

I play Immortal and continents, I usually try to expand peacefully, grabbing the good river/resource locations further from my capital. I will usually get DOWed by one neighbor at this point, so I defend those outer cities and continue to expand inwards toward my capital. By the industrial era I will have a good infrastructure in most/all cities and then I can focus on either artillery or bombers to start pushing into foreign territories.

 

[mintcandy]

I personally find the Hermitage kinda crucial, as by the time it is built (anywhere from T125 to T145).....

I reread this, and I admit I'm a bit impressed.

Getting the Hermitage by 120-140 on Standard speed, Deity difficulty? Wow. I'm lucky to do it before 200 on Emperor/Immortal, but then I also play on vanilla...maybe it's easier to get the Hermitage earlier with Gods and Kings?

 

[whyidie]

Faithbombers irritate me. The good news is they're usually well hated by everyone else in proximity so wars against them don't have as much risk.

UU's provide some motivation as well. Most recent game I had my first Korea roll. I HAD to use the catapult upgraded hwacha before they were patched. Battering Ram and Keshiks demand to be used on the offensive.

Other than that I'm a defensive player. I absolutely love the rolls which leave me without a critical resource. If the right city states are untouchable and friendly Civs don't have the critical resource....war may be the only alternative. In which case I send in the diplomats.

 

[smallfish]

Immortal Continents Typical Setup - If not playing Huns or Keshik/Camel Civ, take out one close civ's capital with comp bow rush, turtle up... and then hit the rest of the continent with artillery. Sign RAs and steal as much techs as possible. Main thing is to be in Industrial and ready to enter Modern by early T200s.

Take out runaway on other continent with BBs and nukes.

 

[bcaiko]

I never decleare without catapults however.

Wise, but not always necessary. A large enough warrior rush can take down cities early on if you're willing to sacrifice a couple of units.

 

[aluelkdf]

I almost always go on the offensive if I have enough happiness and I feel I have enough military strength to win the war without too much trouble.

If I don't have the happiness or clear military superiority, then I will go on the offensive only if I feel like I have to. An example would be to get a crucial recourse that I need and I can't afford to wait.

If none of the conditions above exist, then I will usually take time to build a military, discover new techs, etc.

 

[OmniPotent42]

In my last game I went for a 4 catapult attack with African Forest Elephants and Composite Bowmen for support. Basically tore up all of Austria's cities.

I agree with other posters that you really have to attack before Physics. Otherwise you aren't giving yourself enough of an advantage.

 

[warmonger]

I generally play immortal / deity, marathon, random civs, std Pangaea maps, raging barbs. I declare war as soon as I have 4 archers and 2 mellee. Stay at war until I capture the last capital.

Since G&K nerfed swordsmen, I rarely build a 2nd city - there are now no critical strategic resources- you can win solely with archers and spear / pike. Never build catapults - highly promoted archers / composite / crossbows are much more versatile. Mounted are used rarely and just for barb harvesting and fog busting. Fill out the honour policy as fast as possible. Never accept DoF or RA. only accept embassy if you can't find a capital in the fog. Only accept peace offerings if you are being dog piled.

City build is monument, scout, archer X 4, warrior / spear, walls, library, archers for garrison, after that don't care. First 700 gold buys a worker, next 500 - 700 buys archers / spears. Units are out hitting barbs until 2 promotions each are achieved. If you're lucky, a neighbour will DoW early giving your budding army lots of XP, and an easy, near by, undefended, capital target once your 6 man army is built and their army is destroyed.

Tech tree is archery, mining, worker enabling, writing, bronze working, construction, civil service, machinery. Add sailing, optics if there are lots of coastal cities. No need for much of a navy.

The key is picking the right targets until the core 6 units are highly promoted, then they're unstoppable. Other units are purchased as finances permit - to be used as garrison or sacrificial lambs in sieges.

This works for all leaders regardless of UU or UA.

I guess this is why I chose the name "warmonger" all those years ago. CiV has magnified this tendency because it's basically a war game - chasing any other victory condition is just hours of watching the AI move and pressing end turn - not much fun IMHO.

Desperate for the next patch to stop the unit hopping.

 

[The Pilgrim]

On deity you usually don't need to go offensive. You neighbors do that for you. I wait until AI suicides all its units and counterattack. If for some unexplained reason it doesn't DoW, the answer may vary. Anywhere between turns 50 and 100.

 

[CultureManiac]

On deity you usually don't need to go offensive. You neighbors do that for you. I wait until AI suicides all its units and counterattack. If for some unexplained reason it doesn't DoW, the answer may vary. Anywhere between turns 50 and 100.

Agreed. Let them pound against your city walls while your archers finish them off. When the attack subsides, counterattack. I play Immortal/Deity.

 

[bc1]

On deity you usually don't need to go offensive. You neighbors do that for you. I wait until AI suicides all its units and counterattack. If for some unexplained reason it doesn't DoW, the answer may vary. Anywhere between turns 50 and 100.

Yes and an easy way to deal with the happiness / national wonder cost issues is simply to sell captured cities to the highest bidder and that usually also helps pit AI against one another