When/how to use Slavery?

[MyOtherName]

In cities with lots of food it makes more sense to slowbuild workers and settlers and whip everything else because they regrow so fast that whipping actually makes happiness worse, not better.

One twist on this is when you're in a position where the worker/settler is the only thing you can build and get a big whip. It may be better to get the big whip with the settler/worker timed to get 25 or so hammers of overflow into other things.

 

[sampsa]

In cities with lots of food it makes more sense to slowbuild workers and settlers and whip everything else because they regrow so fast that whipping actually makes happiness worse, not better.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Slowbuilding workers/settlers transforms 1 into 1, while whipping allows you to convert into with a much better rate, depending on the size of the city.

If you seem to run into happiness problems in cities with lots of you should do only big whips (say 3-pop settler) or use the city to run specialists.

One twist on this is when you're in a position where the worker/settler is the only thing you can build and get a big whip. It may be better to get the big whip with the settler/worker timed to get 25 or so hammers of overflow into other things.

I think this mechanic is way over-used (or just misunderstood), as every turn you spend slowbuilding worker/settler to get maximum overflow you are transforming 1 into 1, which is a very inefficient conversion rate. Still, it might be a decent idea when for example overflowing into a wonder.

Overflowing in general is very useful, it just doesn't go well with workers/settlers. If you want a rule of thumb we can go with "Always whip workers/settlers as soon as the whip is available".

 

[Fippy]

Early game 1h for 1f is not that bad imo.
Cities with much food might not have ways to create hammers without whipping, let's say we want a settler + galley combo for an island city.

Waiting for almost maximum settler OF can usually produce the galley one turn after, and then they can sail out

Faster settler (or worker) whipping has other advantages, like unhappy penalty fading sooner.
But sometimes it's very welcome for me to create hammers by waiting.

Early game it would be very difficult for me to set "rules", cities are still small and have different strengths and weaknesses. What can be great for one, another should not do.

 

[sampsa]

Early game 1h for 1f is not that bad imo.

I guess you are assuming no granary. Agreed, it's bad only after granary.

Cities with much food might not have ways to create hammers without whipping, let's say we want a settler + galley combo for an island city.

Waiting for almost maximum settler OF can usually produce the galley one turn after, and then they can sail out

It's a good example, assuming that we gain sailing on the turn overflow comes in. Otherwise we could just whip the galley and produce the settler from another city, right?

Faster settler (or worker) whipping has other advantages, like unhappy penalty fading sooner.
But sometimes it's very welcome for me to create hammers by waiting.

Early game it would be very difficult for me to set "rules", cities are still small and have different strengths and weaknesses. What can be great for one, another should not do.

I don't disagree with that. The reason why I posted what I did is that I know that many learning players make big technical mistakes in these things and lose and for no upside. Can't remember how many screenshots/saves I've seen where someone slowbuilds a worker in a size 4+ city with a granary, probably also working some 21-tiles..

I think many players are just too afraid to stack some whip anger.

 

[Fippy]

Yup i fully agree with that, being "afraid" of unhappy citizens is usually bad and not needed.
They are just hammers waiting to get used

 

[M3dge]

I was a longtime non-user of the whip myself, and without using it, it's tough to play well past Prince. Others have explained the benefits here better than I could - but I will say, the results of embracing this civic properly let you expand much faster and earlier in the game. (which isn't really needed at lower difficulty levels since the AI is slower there.)

By embracing the basics of whipping and chopping early to maximize early cities, plus building your cities where special food tiles are in the first ring, you'll be able to play at Monarch.

I'm working on my first Emperor win myself, but focusing heavily on the first 150 turns, so I haven't played out a game to completion at this difficulty yet.

I struggled on Prince for ages before 'discovering' the whip by reading threads on here . Now I win regularly on Monarch and am also planning my first step up to Emperor. However, every day is a school day...I have mainly used the whip to crank out troops for domination wins. Now I see from here that better players suggest the focus should be on settlers, workers and infrastructure...does not the benefit of earlier rushes against weaker units cancel out the unhappiness effects of 1-pop whips? And the long term benefits of having the AI's good land?

FYI I usually stay in slavery right until I am forced into Emancipation by the unhappiness, unless I am going space when I will run Caste for the specialists.

 

[Izuul]

I mostly use the big settler OF on wonders or the occasional early barb defender (chariots or axes) if my city has poor production. It's not very efficient to whip those 25-30H units, and sometimes you just can't wait for them to slow build. OF into an expansive granary is nice too since you can complete that in 1T with OF right after a whip.

I agree this really isn't a game for hard rules. That's a big part of what makes it great and adds so much replayability. Almost every situation can be viewed as unique.

 

[Fippy]

Now I see from here that better players suggest the focus should be on settlers, workers and infrastructure...does not the benefit of earlier rushes against weaker units cancel out the unhappiness effects of 1-pop whips? And the long term benefits of having the AI's good land?

Whipping units is very common for sure.
There's not really a limit for what your slavery hammers can / should be used.

You describe that well, for units it's often only important how fast you can get them.
1 pop whipping is not generally bad, i like screenie examples..

Spoiler :

So this city has nothing but 1 good tile, if Axes are needed fast for an early rush i would 1 pop whip here over and over as well (until satisfied with my army).

 

[MyOtherName]

I think this mechanic is way over-used (or just misunderstood), as every turn you spend slowbuilding worker/settler to get maximum overflow you are transforming 1 into 1, which is a very inefficient conversion rate. Still, it might be a decent idea when for example overflowing into a wonder.

You're missing the important part: compare the conversion rate of a 3 pop whip to a 1 pop whip.

 

[sampsa]

You're missing the important part: compare the conversion rate of a 3 pop whip to a 1 pop whip.

I beg your pardon? The conversion rate of a 3-pop whip is slightly worse, because the smaller size, the smaller the food bar. The reason why 1-pop whip is bad is that the happiness penalty is the same no matter how many pop you whip.

 

[MyOtherName]

I beg your pardon? The conversion rate of a 3-pop whip is slightly worse, because the smaller size, the smaller the food bar. The reason why 1-pop whip is bad is that the happiness penalty is the same no matter how many pop you whip.

Sorry, it's been a while since I discussed this from scratch.

The rule of "bigger whips are better" is about two things:

• How fast you can convert food to hammers (I suppose 'the happiness penalty is the same' is another way of talking about this)
• Ensuring you get enough benefit to outweigh the cost of being smaller

the former affects hammers/time, the latter hammers/food.

The most significant use case I've used this for (aside from globe shenanigans) is in the early game where you have lots of food that makes it difficult to efficiently build warriors/archers/axemen/whatever. Using the overflow from your worker/settler whips, you can still make the military to keep up with your expansion while still working your good food tiles and not growing into unhappiness.

 

[Izuul]

Well let's be honest here. The most important factors are 1) what's actually being whipped, and 2) how many good tiles does the city have - food tiles in particular.

You can't repeatedly 1-pop whip horse archers, cats, phants etc no matter how much excess happiness you have because they just cost too many hammers for that. You also aren't going to repeatedly 2 > 1 whip a city that has double wet corn.

The 2 > 1 whip requires the least amount of food for regrowth which makes it the most efficient if all other things are equal. However, all other things are rarely equal.

 

[Fippy]

Yep i think we are running a bit in circles.
If 1, 2 or 3 pop whip all have their uses. None of them are generally bad.

If i have a city with +5 food tile (regular corn, hill pigs i.e.) + 1 copper mine (hill or plains), i get only +4 or +3 food when working both.
1 pop whip at size 2 for a settler is okay here.
With slow regrowth, unhappy also matters less.
You can speed up the settler, and losing copper for a while does not matter cos you created hammers by whipping.

There's some food lost, sure..but it's probably recovered in your earlier new city, and there can be other reasons why settling faster is better.

 

[sampsa]

Everyone raises fair points, but as said, if we only talk about conversion rate 1-pop whip offers most per (assuming granary, 30/11 = roughly 2,73 per ), and slow-building worker/settler gives a poor 1:1 conversion rate. Without granary slow-building is not so bad of course.

I agree that in real game your goal is not to maximize this conversion rate, but to do what you need to do. Just don't needlessly convert with a poor rate, when there is a better rate available.

And yeah, don't whip away good tiles is obviously something you should usually respect.