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When Oil runs dry: Crash Of civilization.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Ermak-, Jan 28, 2008.

  1. MalkutX

    MalkutX Warlord

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    You're oversimplifying. So far, all observed phenomena have fit the theory, to some degree. That some non-professionals and a few scientists (and some lobbyists for Exxon) have misinterpreted the data (willingly or otherwise) is not surprising, nor is it unhealthy.

    Which mechanisms cause carbon dioxide to "precipitate out" of the atmosphere?

    This is certainly no way to make a decision.
     
  2. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    Oh sure, let's just bury our heads in the sand and hope the problem goes away by itself. Now there's a viable strategy! :rolleyes:

    Even if it turns out that CO2 isn't the culprit, we'll still benefit by taking action in the form of less smog, less acid rain and a cleaner environment overall. Even our politic and economic situations will benefit. Look at all the crap that's happening in the Middle East, and it's mainly due to oil. And everytime there's an upheaval or setback the price jumps and the global economy suffers. If we can wean ourselves off of a carbon based economy our whole social environment will improve. It's time that we accept the fact that we just can't keep pumping all this crap into our environment without there being some serious repercussions sometime down the road. Our whole economic model is simply not sustainable in the long term and we need to take steps now to make it so.
     
  3. Bahacles44

    Bahacles44 Chieftain

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    What I object to is framing it as a problem. What I am saying is how do you know that the world won't be a better place overall if it is warmer? So what if the sea level rises? So what? The world will not come to an end. Life will not cease to exist. We are capable of adapting to change and of discovering new technologies to mitigate any negative effects.

    I do not trust that our leaders have good intentions. I think they are simply trying to create hysteria that they can then harness to further their political careers. Governmental action most often is governmental tyranny and imposition, and, more importanty, wasteful and ineffective. Why wouldn't you oppose that.

    However, I am not against scrubbing factory emissions to remove bona fide harmful air pollution. CO2 in and of itself does not fit the definition of pollution. It exists naturally in the environment and has existed at much higher levels in the past. Any attempt to decree CO2 a polutant is suspect in my book. This issue is not just about the science (though the science should inform the discussion), its more concerningly about the political/governmental impact. I for one am not willing to buy into the hysteria.
     
  4. Howard!

    Howard! Remembering

    Joined:
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    Okay, just because people don't know how to look themselves... Here are some random articles:

    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070404203258.5klhwqs4&show_article=1

    http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Articles/200709/20070906_Earth_SUVs_Venus.htm
    http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tilmari/tilmari6.htm
    http://www.warwickhughes.com/blog/?p=28

    Here we go, several random articles...

    And in fact to prove just how true everything on the internet is:
    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911_conspiracy.html

    You can't just look at two or three articles and think: "That proves it" and you can't sit back and wait to be shown what is right, I have offered my argument, and if you wish to ignore it, do so. If you have any desire of listening to both sides go and read more articles, if you want to know then you have to find.
     
  5. Stylesrj

    Stylesrj Tabitha SEAL

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    The mouse sank the boat... we all know that.
     
  6. Howard!

    Howard! Remembering

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    Hahaha...Oh, good ol' books from when we were young...
     
  7. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    Obviously you don't live near the ocean. I do and I certainly don't want the shore to be on my doorstep. And I'm sure the people who live in Los Angeles and New York feel the same way. With an appreciable rise in sea levels, they could be facing the same problems that New Orleans is facing now. Frankly I find your attitude to be quite selfish.
     
  8. Howard!

    Howard! Remembering

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    Umm... the sea levels have risen and falled in human history. It has happened before, it will happen again and we will have to live with it.

    PS: I am 8 km inland on a hill surrounded by floodplain (that have no chance of flooding due to how little water is in the river)
     
  9. Stylesrj

    Stylesrj Tabitha SEAL

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    A floodplain eh? So that means a lot of food production!

    Any health problems associated with it? Perhaps a Grocer or an Aqueduct can solve it
     
  10. Howard!

    Howard! Remembering

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    Only health problems involved here are the ones to do with dead fish and a rapidly dying river system.
     
  11. jeffreyac

    jeffreyac Mostly Harmless

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    Nice try, S, but you should know better than to try to drag anything Civ-related into this thread... :mischief:
     
  12. Howard!

    Howard! Remembering

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    It began as a civ topic, but because the idea was based on a debatable theory...

    Also, the great masses of the people will cry out for nuclear power as oil becomes too expensive!
     
  13. Bahacles44

    Bahacles44 Chieftain

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    So everyone should pay for your decision to live on the coast? Frankly, I find your attitude to be quite selfish.
     
  14. Howard!

    Howard! Remembering

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    New Orleans is sinking... The sea hasn't risen yet. New Orleans has been sinking for more than a century.
     
  15. Stylesrj

    Stylesrj Tabitha SEAL

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    Why do people still live there then?

    Why is it also that when an airport is built, people decide to live near it and then when the airport wants to extend the runway, the people complain about the noise it will produce

    IF YOU DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR THE FREAKING AIRPORT, THEN YOU DON'T LIVE AROUND IT!!
     
  16. Howard!

    Howard! Remembering

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    People like to complain. Anyhow, some people may have only been able to afford that housing!
     
  17. Thrasybulus

    Thrasybulus Chieftain

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    Exactly. Ever since the collapse of communism and the discrediting of state-run economies, governments have been searching for ways to re-establish control. Global warming, although I believe it is real and largely man-made, is being exploited for just that end.

    So is global terrorism...
     
  18. Hammurbabble

    Hammurbabble Warlord

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    To make that mod realistic, you shouldn't have oil just run out, because that's not what happens. When you hit the peak, the rate of production declines thereafter year by year, but production doesn't actually stop. The U.S. domestic production hit peak in 1970, but the U.S. is still producing oil, just not as much of it as we once did.

    In game mechanics, what you could do is have peak oil announced, kind of like a random event, and the player could choose to invest in countermeasures. You could have a new building, call it Improved Infrastructure or something like that, which greatly improves energy efficiency and switches to alternative power. Make it cost half the hammers under Environmentalism, maybe. Any city that doesn't have it will suffer something like:

    1) A surtax on gold production that increases over time, representing the cost to buy increasingly-expensive and scarce oil;

    2) Declines in productivity of farms, mines, towns, etc. reducing them to pre-Biology, pre-Railroad, or just generally sucky level, these declines not happening all at once but also getting worse over time;

    3) An increase in the support costs for all oil-based military units that grows over time; and/or

    3) Increased unhealthiness/unhappiness because of the massive inflation caused by zooming fuel prices.

    As for global warming, you could simulate that by:

    1) Rising sea levels affecting coastal cities, requiring them to build expensive sea walls or other things to keep from disappearing. (Probably have to run Universal Suffrage and rush them in many cases.)

    2) Farm failures as climate change makes it impossible to grow the same stuff in the same places. The failure would last for a certain number of turns until farmers learn how to grow new stuff (this could maybe be rushed with an outlay of gold). It would also be a recurring problem unless/until the warming was halted.

    3) Increased storm activity, mainly affecting coastal cities again. Treat it like a random event, but with an increasing chance of happening.

    4) An epidemic random event with a chance increasing over time.

    The obvious way to fight global warming in-game is to pass the UN resolution requiring Environmentalism as a global civic. That cuts the rate in half, maybe. Then there might be a further reduction for every coal plant replaced by either hydro or nuclear, and for every city that builds Improved Infrastructure (see above).

    Then we get into overpopulation and new plagues that try to compensate for it . . . and what about poor civs that don't have the tech to do any of this stuff?

    It's getting a little too real in here . . .:eek:
     
  19. Hammurbabble

    Hammurbabble Warlord

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    None of the governments you're talking about ever had state-run economies. In the days when Communist governments still existed, control was exerted in the West not by imitating Communists, but by using them as the boogie-man to scare people.

    Global terrorism is indeed being used for that purpose, but the people who are doing so are also in the business of denying that global warming is real.
     
  20. Howard!

    Howard! Remembering

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    So, who is your dealer?

    Don't tell me, the US government was responsible for 9/11. Saddam Hussein was really a great guy, those make shift morgues for his victims... oops! I mean...

    You are taking everything you hate, and throwing it in one boat. You cannot find correlations between being skeptical of a theory that predicts our doom through temperature that have been seen on the planet before and people who think Global terrorism is an actual threat. I find it absurd for people to even contemplate the idea that the American Government was even remotely involved with 9/11. One day I hear about people talking about the incompetence of the American government and how they couldn't organise what they were getting for lunch. Next thing I know, they are an all knowing super government that could set up the most elaborate hoax in history!

    My god, get a grip. The reason why some people are skeptical about the theory of global warming is that there is still a cause for doubt, it is not because the world is full of evil soulless supervillians. The same goes for terrorism. Hmmm... I can't think of any reason why America would try and help another country, it's not like it's a good thing or anything.
     

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