When to build first worker/settler?
- Thread starter Teliniar
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PMabey
Warlord
I normally build worker/warrior/settler. Maybe a fishing boat if im on coast and warrior first if worker has nothing 2 do.
That doesn't quite answer my question. Do you mean you build a settler/worker right away?
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
In almost every case, I build my Worker straight away. In the few cases when I don't do this (I'm close to an AI, or want the extra gold from growth to ensure I found a religion), I build a Warrior then a Worker. Because tile improvements make the output of tiles so much greater, Workers pay off the cost of building them (and then some) extremely quickly, and make your land far more powerful. Most of the other high difficulty players I know will also build Workers as soon as possible in the game. (If you're Expansive then building Workers straight away is even better, since you build them faster.)
As for Settlers, that's more of an individual choice, but personally I prefer (depending on circumstances) to wait until at least size 3 or 4 before starting to build them, due to their high cost (and the fact that I need to get my capital up and running). Of course, this will vary a bit, and if I'm Imperialistic then I may go for a Settler earlier (since they're built faster).
Hope that helps to answer your question.
As for Settlers, that's more of an individual choice, but personally I prefer (depending on circumstances) to wait until at least size 3 or 4 before starting to build them, due to their high cost (and the fact that I need to get my capital up and running). Of course, this will vary a bit, and if I'm Imperialistic then I may go for a Settler earlier (since they're built faster).
Hope that helps to answer your question.
I'd agree completely with what Lord Parkin said. Workers are extremely valuable for getting tile yields increased ASAP, which will then lead to compound gains on the improved yields. I almost always start with a worker, unless I am playing multiplayer (warrior), have coastal resources and fishing (work boat), or am going for a religion and want the extra gold or have to skip worker techs early.
Also, you may want to make a distinction as to whether you are discussing SP or MP, as the latter would likely require more of a focus on defense than facing the more passive AI opponents would.
Also, you may want to make a distinction as to whether you are discussing SP or MP, as the latter would likely require more of a focus on defense than facing the more passive AI opponents would.
Nearly always worker-warrior/scout- settler.
I used to always wait untill size 3 or 4 untill building my first settler untill I figured out you only gain 1 extra hammer/food by growing so it only shaves off about 2 turns and you have to wait about 7/8 turns for growth so you are delaying your settler and your second city builds slower.
I used to always wait untill size 3 or 4 untill building my first settler untill I figured out you only gain 1 extra hammer/food by growing so it only shaves off about 2 turns and you have to wait about 7/8 turns for growth so you are delaying your settler and your second city builds slower.
Generally I do when there is enough tiles to keep worker busy:
Worker -> Warriors to pop 3 -> Settler
If the start point and techs mean worker would waste turns I do:
Warrior + Start a second or do some turns of barrack till pop 2 -> Worker -> Warriors to pop 3 -> Settler
Start has to be pretty badly matched to starting techs, usually theres some hill to mine or resource to upgrade/connect.
I don't do settler to pop 3 purely so I get a bit more techs to reveal more resources (horse and/or BW) and scouting done so I get a good second city location, especially if i'm only 2 or 3 turns from pop 3.
Worker -> Warriors to pop 3 -> Settler
If the start point and techs mean worker would waste turns I do:
Warrior + Start a second or do some turns of barrack till pop 2 -> Worker -> Warriors to pop 3 -> Settler
Start has to be pretty badly matched to starting techs, usually theres some hill to mine or resource to upgrade/connect.
I don't do settler to pop 3 purely so I get a bit more techs to reveal more resources (horse and/or BW) and scouting done so I get a good second city location, especially if i'm only 2 or 3 turns from pop 3.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
That depends on what tiles you have around. If you have a lot of food and/or hammer tiles which can be worked, then an extra population point may contribute 2 or 3 or even 4 extra hammers/food, which can be quite considerable. But it varies, of course, according to the situation. I agree with you that when the extra population point would only give 1 extra hammer/food, it is not worth waiting to build the settler/worker.
shadow2k
Emperor
That depends on what tiles you have around. If you have a lot of food and/or hammer tiles which can be worked, then an extra population point may contribute 2 or 3 or even 4 extra hammers/food, which can be quite considerable. But it varies, of course, according to the situation. I agree with you that when the extra population point would only give 1 extra hammer/food, it is not worth waiting to build the settler/worker.
Unimproved tiles are never going to have more than 3 food or hammers combined. And the new citizen you waited to grow will eat up two food. So you can't add any more than one production total to a worker/settler build by waiting to grow into an unimproved tile. The only exception is for Expansive/Imperialistic civs, who get bonuses towards workers/settlers.
Basically, worker first is normally going to get you off and running the quickest. But you need to make sure he has something useful to do, and that you don't need the added commerce a second citizen could bring in if you're going after an early religion.
There's an exception, shadow2k. Plains/forest deer is F2H2 - the only FP>3 tile unimproved. Of course deer is not found on plains, but when your capitol is in tundra region, the tundra tiles get transformed to plains allowing for this magnificient tile to appear.
But yes, worker early is the only way to get real improvement. I go for worker first or scout/warrior followed by worker depending on the techs - excepting religion chase when I generally go for military builds (or stonehenge) for a while.
But yes, worker early is the only way to get real improvement. I go for worker first or scout/warrior followed by worker depending on the techs - excepting religion chase when I generally go for military builds (or stonehenge) for a while.
drkodos
Emperor
In some starts I build settler first, but most often worker is the first build that makes the most sense and yields the highest capacity for rapid growth.
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
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- 3,663
Another exception to the rule is when researching BronzeWorking off the bat - your production is slightly better if you grow exactly to size 2 while training a warrior or scout (or perhaps constructing a building), then put in a bunch of turns on the worker and whip it as soon as slavery is available.
Details
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EscapedGoat
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2005
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- 204
It's important to make investments that make Food/Production sense in the early game. That means 3 things: improving special tiles, building new cities and chopping forests. Strategies that do not add to this goal are IMO misguided. Commerce does not add production and will thus not add to your growth, making it a 2nd. priority(but you will need it after a while of course)
The 'Grow your city to size 3 then produce a settler' strategy is not so good. Like others have pointed out, you only gain +1 FP/turn per extra unimproved tile worked, and maybe 1 commerce. In the best case you are working floodplains growing to size 3, you will grow in 8+6+5=19 turns, have gained only +3 FP/turn and +3 commerce/turn. As a comparison, if you build a worker first, you will have by turn 19 probably already improved a special food/prod tile to yield +3 FP/turn, you have a worker and are ready to start chopping forests or improve more tiles.
Building a worker right away provided you can improve a special tile to yield 3 more resources will be an investment giving you +3 FP/turn. Building a worker that can chop forest will give you a return of (20/4)=+5 FP/turn. Building a worker that can only improve squares by +1 FP/Turn(i.e irrigating a floodplain) is a pretty useless short term investment. You can see that a worker that improves 2 specials to give +3 FP each, then starts chopping woods, will give a really great return on investment, +3 FP/turn +3 FP/turn +5 FP/turn(from chops).
Building a settler will give you a surplus return of +4 FP/turn(one hammer from city square and 3 FP from working a square) right away. Productionwise, you can often be better off just starting with a worker to chop or improve specials, but getting an early settler out has high strategic value in that you can grab a good location before it is settled by someone else.
IMO you should allways start with a worker or settler(unless you are doing the quirky 'size 2 rush worker' trick, which nets you about 10 hammers and maybe 6 gold over just building the worker right off the bat). Of coures, in multiplayer you may need to build 1-2 warriors first depending on size of map. Anything else is just not adding to your growth, and early growth will exponentially increase your power later in the game.
The 'Grow your city to size 3 then produce a settler' strategy is not so good. Like others have pointed out, you only gain +1 FP/turn per extra unimproved tile worked, and maybe 1 commerce. In the best case you are working floodplains growing to size 3, you will grow in 8+6+5=19 turns, have gained only +3 FP/turn and +3 commerce/turn. As a comparison, if you build a worker first, you will have by turn 19 probably already improved a special food/prod tile to yield +3 FP/turn, you have a worker and are ready to start chopping forests or improve more tiles.
Building a worker right away provided you can improve a special tile to yield 3 more resources will be an investment giving you +3 FP/turn. Building a worker that can chop forest will give you a return of (20/4)=+5 FP/turn. Building a worker that can only improve squares by +1 FP/Turn(i.e irrigating a floodplain) is a pretty useless short term investment. You can see that a worker that improves 2 specials to give +3 FP each, then starts chopping woods, will give a really great return on investment, +3 FP/turn +3 FP/turn +5 FP/turn(from chops).
Building a settler will give you a surplus return of +4 FP/turn(one hammer from city square and 3 FP from working a square) right away. Productionwise, you can often be better off just starting with a worker to chop or improve specials, but getting an early settler out has high strategic value in that you can grab a good location before it is settled by someone else.
IMO you should allways start with a worker or settler(unless you are doing the quirky 'size 2 rush worker' trick, which nets you about 10 hammers and maybe 6 gold over just building the worker right off the bat). Of coures, in multiplayer you may need to build 1-2 warriors first depending on size of map. Anything else is just not adding to your growth, and early growth will exponentially increase your power later in the game.
I love a settler first it's not the best but it's solid start so you can get early copper or horses and start to build your army if you get boxed after your 2-3 cities and you don't have an army it's going to cost you a lot while you are making an army AI's are taking cities freely.
dragomaster
Warlord
It depends on where you are and what you are after. If no worker techs ar avaible thers no need for a worker. A worker need to have something to do, Wy employ someone if therse no work? just a waste of hammers and monney.
I build settler when there is place for more citys and my science slider is 60% or above.
In the beginning of the game i ushaly start with a warrior then barracks or anouther warrior to explore with. I build the worker at the piont where the worker and the worker tech is finished on the same turn. If I have the wheel from the start i probably start with worker cous the wheel make him occupide. There is no golden rule, in my last game I begun with a settler without beeing imperialistic. the city spot was just to juicy to miss (1 Ivory, 2 gold, 1 corn and 1 sugar is a werry nice early city).
Every game starts out different, use your common sense.
I build settler when there is place for more citys and my science slider is 60% or above.
In the beginning of the game i ushaly start with a warrior then barracks or anouther warrior to explore with. I build the worker at the piont where the worker and the worker tech is finished on the same turn. If I have the wheel from the start i probably start with worker cous the wheel make him occupide. There is no golden rule, in my last game I begun with a settler without beeing imperialistic. the city spot was just to juicy to miss (1 Ivory, 2 gold, 1 corn and 1 sugar is a werry nice early city).
Every game starts out different, use your common sense.
You should definitely plan on getting a Worker very early on. In the past I've pretty much always waited until reaching size 2 and then immediately started my first Worker. But I find Lord Parkin and EscapedGoat's arguments for building the Worker right from the start pretty convincing.
There are a few potential reasons not to do the Worker first:
The long and short of it, though, is that your very first Worker is probably the most useful investment you'll make all game, and if you don't build one (or capture one, I guess) first thing then it should probably be the second or third thing you build.
The best time to build your first Settler is a lot harder to nail down. A lot depends on the map type, the lay of the land, the number of opponents, where they are relative to you, and various other settings. On a small enough map or one with enough opponents you might conceivably never build a Settler, and just conquer enemy cities instead.
With that said, if you're playing a fairly typical game--one where there's space for everyone to build several cities and you aren't feeling super aggressive--then I'd say a Settler should be no later than your fourth thing built. You'll almost certainly want to build a Worker first, and you'll probably want a Warrior or a Scout before you build a Settler as well. The first because of the many benefits already explained, the second because you need units to explore and find a place to build the second city, as well as protect the Settler from animals once it is ready.
It might make sense to delay the Settler until your fourth build if you included a Work Boat in your early builds, or if you lost a military unit in an early battle. The overall goal, however, is to get a second city, on a good location, as quickly as possible. The payoff from a second city, in terms of additional commerce, more resources, and the fact that you can now build two different things at once is simply enormous.
There are a few potential reasons not to do the Worker first:
- If there's a sea resource within reach and you have Fishing then building a Work Boat first is kind of like having your cake (improved tile) and eating it too (city growth).
- If you lack appropriate technologies for your Worker to do something right away then obviously there's no need for one just yet.
- You want to concentrate on commerce first, presumably because you're chasing a religion.
- You could avoid building a Worker entirely if you can manage to capture one from a neighbor and get it back to your capital quickly. This isn't a move you can count on pulling off on a random map but it might make sense if you're confident that you have neighbors close by.
- It might be better to build a Settler first if you have reason to fear that land will fill up quickly. With anything like a normal map or normal number of opponents I don't think this should be a concern, however.
The long and short of it, though, is that your very first Worker is probably the most useful investment you'll make all game, and if you don't build one (or capture one, I guess) first thing then it should probably be the second or third thing you build.
The best time to build your first Settler is a lot harder to nail down. A lot depends on the map type, the lay of the land, the number of opponents, where they are relative to you, and various other settings. On a small enough map or one with enough opponents you might conceivably never build a Settler, and just conquer enemy cities instead.
With that said, if you're playing a fairly typical game--one where there's space for everyone to build several cities and you aren't feeling super aggressive--then I'd say a Settler should be no later than your fourth thing built. You'll almost certainly want to build a Worker first, and you'll probably want a Warrior or a Scout before you build a Settler as well. The first because of the many benefits already explained, the second because you need units to explore and find a place to build the second city, as well as protect the Settler from animals once it is ready.
It might make sense to delay the Settler until your fourth build if you included a Work Boat in your early builds, or if you lost a military unit in an early battle. The overall goal, however, is to get a second city, on a good location, as quickly as possible. The payoff from a second city, in terms of additional commerce, more resources, and the fact that you can now build two different things at once is simply enormous.
Bagpuss
Chieftain
At the risk of dragging the quality down...This is a very interesting and informative thread. I've learned a lot just by reading this.
Just when I thought I was starting to get a grip on Civ IV 'micro-management' I get my nose rubbed into the fact that there are whole new worlds of it I wasn't aware existed.
Just when I thought I was starting to get a grip on Civ IV 'micro-management' I get my nose rubbed into the fact that there are whole new worlds of it I wasn't aware existed.
Ankh-f-n-Khonsu
forth-speaker of Mentu
How is it that you can create a settler first, and then get him out there to grab early copper or horses? If you're crafting a settler first, you *definitely* do not have BW (so don't know where the copper is) and as often as not do not have AH (so don't know where the horses are).
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
Good list, I would add one. If you are planning to Quechua rush, don't waste time on a worker...
Because I always add 3 more AIs to a standard 7 AI map, the distance between me and my neighbors are closer. In such situation, to make 4 warriors and declare war on all neighbors by robbing workers. Four warriors are strong enough to deter any AI.
To do that, you can not use Bettle AI because they will never forgive you.
To do that, you can not use Bettle AI because they will never forgive you.
