When to research IW on Prince?

[bovinespy]

Hello all. Lately, I've been noticing that my games continually are being derailed in the late Ancient Age. Then, on my last game, I think I figured out why - there seems to be a crucial 'fork-in-the-road' for research about this time. Specifically, I keep having to make a hard choice between Iron Working and Alphabet/Mathematics/Code of Laws, but I'm not sure which to pick in which situations. Maybe you guys can help me out. When do you research IW?

Early Research of Iron Working

Pros: reveals resource for increased tile productivity, allows for construction of Swordsmen (and Axemen and Spearmen if you lack bronze), unlocks ability to remove jungle, decent trade value, boosts rating on power graph

Cons: fairly expensive tech that comes at a time when crucial economic techs are usually available (Alphabet/Mathematics/Code of Laws), may not reveal any usable tiles in vicinity, doesn't lead to any immediately useful tech

Of course, when to research depends on many factors, such as:

- having bronze and/or horses
- having an iron-dependent UU
- having an island to yourself
- having hostile neighbors
- overall tech standing relative to AI
- having a lot of jungle tiles
- current civ spread i.e. how many cities you already have
- your civ's traits
- your overall strategy (war/tech/culture/religion/hybrid)

For me, the dilemma is worst when I've got an island to myself. On one hand, military concerns are negligible, and the most important tech goal is getting to Optics ASAP (I realize IW is a pre-requisite, but when you're isolated, you've got to pump up your economy/research fast). On the other hand, since I can be very selective about city sites (with no AI competition), I want to make sure I pick the best sites possible. Nothing chaps my hide more than settling that 3rd or 4th city and having Iron pop up just outside that city's fat cross!

So what do you think?

 

[drkodos]

I almost always pick up IW before Alphabet. I usally like to grab Mathematics and several others as well. Especially on Prince because I usually have a tech lead and there are not a lot of needed techs that the other Civs will trade with me anyway early game.

Iron Working also gives you a nice spike on the power graph, so once you get it, it boosts your power in the other Civ's eyes and makes you more formidible looking (the cat analogy fit in here).

Lately, I have been researching Mathematics first and then Iron Working and only going for Alphabet if I am looking to get Literature to build Great Library. Other than that, I have been leaving Alphabet out of the mix and doing very well.

By the time I meet Civ's from other continents I either have it or they do so trade negotiation is no issue.


I think it is one of the most overrated techs and more and more I make it less and less a priority.


It is actually possible to win a Space Ship victory and never have researched Alphabet (which I have done on lower levels, but not yet on Prince). It is only a mandatory tech for Literature and the other Cultural techs on the top of the chart (Drama, Music, Philosophy, Liberalism, etc).

And look, even today in the real world, China has no alphabet yet they manage to be a major power.

 

[bovinespy]

Iron Working also gives you a nice spike on the power graph, so once you get it, it boosts your power in the other Civ's eyes and makes you more formidible looking (the cat analogy fit in here).

Good point, drkodos. I edited my initial post to include that.

Well, I'm glad to see an experienced player who also likes IW early. I actually prefer to pick it up ASAP myself, but after seeing a lot of discussions/SG's on this forum, I started to feel guilty about not getting Alphabet first
Next game, I'll snag it as soon as I damn well please!

Yeah, and that pictograph thing seems to be working out OK for the Middle Kingdom. Plus, not being able to research Music, it's easy to see why Elvis wasn't Chinese!

 

[WTBCzero]

I like to research it before i start a war so i can see if where my enemy's iron is.

 

[Elrohir]

I play on Monarch, and I generally wait until after I've researched Alphabet and Code of Laws, if I have copper; generally I can trade for IW once I get Alphabet. If I don't have copper, though, I'll usually research it right away, as Archers and Chariots, or just Archers (Yikes!) can't do much, even against the barbs.

I had a scary moment playing last night, the first couple barbarian axemen were just coming into my lands as I started hooking up my copper - I had to fend the first few off entirely with archers!

Basically, if I have copper, iron isn't necessary. If I don't, then get it ASAP.

 

[cleverhandle]

I generally don't worry about IW if I have copper already. Axes are so much more versatile than swords that I don't consider swords any advantage at all. The only other time I might think about IW before the top of the tree is if I desperately need to clear jungle tiles. Otherwise, I'll trade for it after getting Alphabet.

This bit stuck out at me...

For me, the dilemma is worst when I've got an island to myself. On one hand, military concerns are negligible, and the most important tech goal is getting to Optics ASAP

In my experience, this is exactly the wrong approach to island starts, especially as the difficulty level increases. The challenge in island starts is economic, and pushing for Optics takes you down a tech path that does very little for you in that department. If I don't get CoL and Currency early, I'm going to be an era behind the AI's before my caravels find them, and then what the heck am I going to trade with them at that point? Let the AI's find me - they love Optics so much that it's hard to beat them to it even on a regular continental start.

 

[Meatbuster]

And look, even today in the real world, China has no alphabet yet they manage to be a major power.

Actually Chinese does have an alphabet. The pronounciations of the Chinese "hieroglyphs", at least in Mandarin, are combinations of 1-3 "letters" of said alphabet.

 

[drkodos]

Actually Chinese does have an alphabet. The pronounciations of the Chinese "hieroglyphs", at least in Mandarin, are combinations of 1-3 "letters" of said alphabet.

That is untrue. I speak Mandarin.

There is no Chinese Alphabet.

There is a relationship between structure of each symbol and its pronunciation, but the symbols cannot be broken down into smaller components to construct a new word. And that reconstruction to make other words is the defining characteristic of an alphabet.

Modern Mandarin is made up of about 400 syllables. There are two elements, the initial called the sheng

and a final, the yun

. There are total 21 sheng and 38 yun.

There is a chinese PHONETIC alphabet that uses pinyin system of Beijing dialect of Mandarin, but it is not a true alphabet.

http://www.lechinois.com/character/speechsounds.html


Each word is set and is basically written the exact same way as it was written 2,000 years ago.

 

[Meatbuster]

Well that really depends on the strict definition of alphabet vs just phonetic alphabet doesn't it?

Back to the topic, personally I am not a fan of Swordsmen (and I don't play Rome enough) and only get Iron Working earlier (= not in a tech trade) if I have lots of jungle to deal with.

 

[drkodos]

Well that really depends on the strict definition of alphabet vs just phonetic alphabet doesn't it?

Not really.

A phonetic alphabet is a learning tool. A real alphabet is used to create and write words. Chinese do not write alphabet letters because they do not exist in Mandarin.

The phonetic alphabet is for mainly non-chinese people to learn pronounciation of chinese words and to assist in learning the structures. It has no use in real life in China because it is written Romantic alphabet (English).

The letter "A" does not exist in Mandarin, but the sounds it can make does. The phonetic alphabet is there to help non-chinese people have a reference point in their own native language for how to pronouce Chinese syllables.

Is one reason why learning Chinese is so incredibly difficult for Westerners. Learning the written language is a completely different set of skills involved than learning how to speak, whereas western languages marry those two seperate components into one entity through the use of an alphabet.

Back to topic:

personally I am not a fan of Swordsmen (and I don't play Rome enough) and only get Iron Working earlier (= not in a tech trade) if I have lots of jungle to deal with.

I hear ya, but IW gives such a boost on the Power graph. It is like having a shadow army. There is a thread around somewhere that details how many "points" each tech or unit contributes to power. If I find it, I will link it.

I don't get invaded that much, even on high levels with a small standing army, because I like to game the power graph, which is what AI uses most to decide whether or not to attack.

 

[bovinespy]

In my experience, this is exactly the wrong approach to island starts, especially as the difficulty level increases. The challenge in island starts is economic, and pushing for Optics takes you down a tech path that does very little for you in that department. If I don't get CoL and Currency early, I'm going to be an era behind the AI's before my caravels find them, and then what the heck am I going to trade with them at that point? Let the AI's find me - they love Optics so much that it's hard to beat them to it even on a regular continental start.

Well, that's unless you focus on popping Great Engineers and light-bulbing techs - then you can have Optics surprisingly quickly. IIRC, even making contact with the AI civs will improve your research indirectly, by lowering tech costs for each civ that has the tech you're going for at the time. Regardless, from a purely philosophical standpoint, I just don't relish the prospect of playing Moctezuma II to the AI's Hernan Cortes, if you know what I mean...

 

[Gnarfflinger]

When playing Rome, I do delay for the Wheel and Pottery (maybe some key worker techs to get a resource), but I get Iron working ASAP.

One game as MM, I basically rushed for Archery for Skirmishers, got Pottery then rushed for Construction for a War Elephant rush. I picked up other stuff as needed. I guess I just go game to game on that decision...

 

[cabert]

alphabet is good when you have trade partners
IW is good when you have gems hidden under jungle
CoL is good when you are organized and spiritual (asoka!)
Currency is good when you have a lot of cities.

There is no "always best" tech. My favourite is alphabet, because you can extort tech from low power civs, but it's only true if:
- you have a target
- you can have an army
- your target as something to give
- your target is not tokugawa