Where did the ancient Egyptians get their charcoal for iron working?

[Maniac]

Given Civ5's move to a quantitative use for strategic resources, I was thinking it would be cool to, in an ancient mediterranean mod, add 'charcoal' or 'wood' as a resource which could be obtained from forests, and which would be required to build boats and units with iron/steel weapons.

Now the question arises to me how Egypt, and other regions with little woodland, got the charcoal required to produce steel. Wikipedia says that mass iron working started later in Egypt than most other places, around 700 BC, which I guess could be explained by the lack of wood. However after 700 BC it did get off, so then they still had to get their charcoal somewhere. Anyone know where?

 

[Agent327]

Yah, ancient Egyptians didn´t produce steel ofcourse, but they were quite familiar with the concept of trade - like with the forested regions of Cyrenaica and... Lebanon (Phoenicia), famed for its magnificent trees, which, traders that they were, they exported. (Interestingly both regions are now largely devoid of any trees...)

 

[Maniac]

Ah, I didn't know Cyrenaica was forested, as forests are never placed there on Civ maps.

 

[LightSpectra]

As far as I can tell, the Neo-Assyrians were the first ones to use iron for military purposes, so my guess is that the Egyptians didn't get iron in any sizable quantity until they were conquered by the aforementioned empire.

 

[GoodGame]

Interesting discussions on it:
http://www.gizagrid.com/egyptian_iron.html
http://www.touregypt.net/science.htm
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/trades/tools.htm
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/wood.htm

Sounds like first iron objects were imported, maybe from Hittites as LS says.
Chalbyians (greek tribe) may have imported knowledge of it to Egypt.


Even though they didn't make steel, adding charcoal was still useful because it made their iron harder. The reason being because the way they made iron wasn't complete (couldn't get it hot enough to be completely molten) so added charcoal was absorbed made it harder. Iron without the charcoal would be brittle and not much better than bronze.

 

[Cynovolans]

Sounds like first iron objects were imported, maybe from Hittites as LS says.
Chalbyians (greek tribe) may have imported knowledge of it to Egypt.

The who? The first evidence we have of iron-smelting in Egypt comes from Naucratis, a city settled by Carian and Ionian Greeks.

And according to a list in Ancient Egyptian Materials and Industries, the majority of wood found from Saite(first Iron age egyptian dynasty) sites is Lebanese Cedar wood. (With some occasional fir trees probably from the same place)

 

[Verbose]

The Ancient Egyptian word for iron was "bia-en-pet" (roughly, with presumed vowels added), meaning "copper from the sky". They had probably known about the stuff for ever, as little granules, beads, of meteoric iron is lying around the Sahara. And they used them as beads. However, among the things king Tut's was taking with him into the afterlife were two iron daggers. Doesn't seem settled exactly where they came from. The Hittites have been credited with being these pioneer masters of extracting iron for heating and hammering into weapons, and so might have been involved, either directly or indirectly, providing the Egyptians with inspiration.
But the daggers could also very well be of local Egyptian make, from meteoric iron heated and hammered into blades. And the Egyptians could have hit upon the idea themselves, since other people around the world, the inuit for instance, have independantly worked out how to to do this with meteoreic iron. Meteoric iron would however never have been available in enough quantities to make any real impact on Egyptian weapons or tools though - just enought for apparent, likely desperately expensive, one-offs like Tut's daggers:

 

[Agent327]

Interesting contributions, guys. Thx.

Ah, I didn't know Cyrenaica was forested, as forests are never placed there on Civ maps.

That´s why they are on mine.

As far as I can tell, the Neo-Assyrians were the first ones to use iron for military purposes, so my guess is that the Egyptians didn't get iron in any sizable quantity until they were conquered by the aforementioned empire.

That would concur with the 700 BC startdate. They did have access to bronze mines though. (Also conspicuously absent on regular Civmaps).

 

[GoodGame]

The who? The first evidence we have of iron-smelting in Egypt comes from Naucratis, a city settled by Carian and Ionian Greeks.

And according to a list in Ancient Egyptian Materials and Industries, the majority of wood found from Saite(first Iron age egyptian dynasty) sites is Lebanese Cedar wood. (With some occasional fir trees probably from the same place)

Most of what I read agreed with the wood coming from fertile crescent as well.


Chalybes: from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalybes
But reading the wikipedia, I wouldn't be surprised if those actually were the Hittites or a related tribe (Asia minor). The name comes from Greek. So without having a good map, I'd say they're all nearly the same peoples .

 

[TheLastOne36]

Most of the Fertile Crescent was forest in the times of the Egyptians.

 

[Maniac]

Thanks for the replies.

Does anyone know of any maps showing the extent of the forests in Europe and the Mediterranean up to Persia in the Ancient and Classical eras? My Google skills fail me.

 

[bombshoo]

The Ancient Egyptian word for iron was "bia-en-pet" (roughly, with presumed vowels added), meaning "copper from the sky". They had probably known about the stuff for ever, as little granules, beads, of meteoric iron is lying around the Sahara. And they used them as beads. However, among the things king Tut's was taking with him into the afterlife were two iron daggers. Doesn't seem settled exactly where they came from. The Hittites have been credited with being these pioneer masters of extracting iron for heating and hammering into weapons, and so might have been involved, either directly or indirectly, providing the Egyptians with inspiration.
But the daggers could also very well be of local Egyptian make, from meteoric iron heated and hammered into blades. And the Egyptians could have hit upon the idea themselves, since other people around the world, the inuit for instance, have independantly worked out how to to do this with meteoreic iron. Meteoric iron would however never have been available in enough quantities to make any real impact on Egyptian weapons or tools though - just enought for apparent, likely desperately expensive, one-offs like Tut's daggers:

Those are some cool looking daggers.

 

[Maniac]

Yeah I want one too.

 

[Birdjaguar]

They did have access to bronze mines though.

Perhaps you mean copper mines and imported tin?

 

[Verbose]

Perhaps you mean copper mines and imported tin?

That would seem to be the ticket, yes. Though the access to tin would seem to have been iffy. Copper most obviously could be got from Cyprus (it named the place), but tin does seem to have been in very short supply. Most Egyptian "bronze" implements for the longest time in their history was pretty much pure copper, so the "bronze age" in Egypt was mostly a "copper age". But then again, Egypt was always lagging in areas of weapons technology.

 

[Silurian]

Maybe the Tin came from England

 

[GinandTonic]

Arsnical bronze too