Where does anti-Semitism start

[Mescalhead]

Originally posted by ZultanofZex
Mescalhead: I think I agree there. The Jewish are, and have been, very successful, and this created alot of hatered. They are also different enough to target easily.

Not necassarily. Judaism is the only religion where you can choose not to practice or remotely be a part of it, but you are still "considered" a Jew. That is ridiculous, and understand that I define a Jew as someone who practices that religion or who very much adheres to that culture. That said, some people will not let it go. People who have Jewish ancestors are considered Jews and the enemy by unrelenting people. And for them it seems to be racial just as much as cultural or religious. They believe that the Jewish "race" has inherent qualities and detriments that threaten the host nation in which they live.

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by ZultanofZex
RIII: OK, I've baited you enough, so you can stop hitting those 5 keys on your keyboard...as I said above, it is perhaps lazy to say Jews about citizens of Israel, but it happens to be the only Jewish state, and being Jewish is a sure passport to gain access to that country. Would you really have been this upset if he would have said "Norweigians club seals" instead of "Some people, of both Norweigian citizenship and others, of different religion and racial heritage, have, with the consent of the Norweigian Govn. clubbed seal cubs".

No, because nobody hates Norwegians except Norwegians and dumped ex's of cheating Norwegians. And a few swedes.

That said, I think I would have been this upset if you'd said "Pakistanis suicide bomb all the time," "Arabs are killers," "Italians are all in the mob," or "Blacks are steet criminals," "WASPS are always shooting black people," "Chinese have no respect for life," etc.

So, comparing those remarks to "Jews are big on human rights abuses," well, see my point yet?

I'll hold off on the five keys for now.

R.III

 

[Ossric]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe


I'm not confusing anything. You are confusing my name, though.

that i did

I live in Antwerp, Belgium. A lot of jews live there because of the diamont industry. I can say to that there are no growing anti-semitism feelings from the "native" people here. The only people that have a problem with them are a small number of discontent young people from arabic origine. But that small number has a problem with everybody. there is a growing intolerence noticable, but that isn't against jews, it's against the muslim youth.

If there is a form of anti-semetism in Europe, it comes from 2 parties; young arabic imigrants & neo-nazi's.

 

[EdwardTking]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe

Do you think the growing fashion of attacks against Jews and harrasment of those in Europe is a result of anti-Semitism?

Yes, and I am disgusted with it.

Would you rate it as anti-Semitism, or legitimate resistance to Israeli actions?

It is anti-semitism. It really has only a little connection with Israel.
When the islamisists feel stronger (reinforced by more illegal immigrants and higher population growth), they will turn on Christians and Secularists in the west too.

In addition, are you concerned by the growing popularity and acceptance of anti-Semitism in muslim countries and leaders?

It is the nature of religious fundamentalists to be hostile to all those who do not share their views. Growing anti-Semitism is one of the many consequences of islamic fundamentalism; other consequences being anti-christian, anti-secular, anti-scientific, anti-western. Imho if Bush had not acted to promote the 'american century', we would now be observing an anti-islamic fundamentalism alliance of China, India and the West naturally arising to combat Al-Quaedi and such groups.

 

[willemvanoranje]

Do you think the growing fashion of attacks against Jews and harrasment of those in Europe is a result of anti-Semitism?

Like in Antwerp, here in Holland it's the Arabic youth that harrases Jews, especially the realigious ones. It's one of the most disgusting things on this planet.

Would you rate it as anti-Semitism, or legitimate resistance to Israeli actions?

Well, anti-semitism is something else from being anti-Israel. You can be anti-Israel without being a anti-semite. Most of what happens here is anti-semitism though, with the false pretext of anti-Israel actions. As soon as one attacks a Jew, you can be 99.99999% sure it's anti-semitism. Even if it isn't, they still belong in jail (no matter who they attack).


In addition, are you concerned by the growing popularity and acceptance of anti-Semitism in muslim countries and leaders?

Yes I am. But that does not only concern anti-semitist leaders, but also anti-muslim, anti-christian, anti-foreigner or anti-whatever people leaders.

 

[Smaasnekje]

Does the fact that I think that Sharon (wich visited the town closest to me this summer) look like Jabba the Hut make me an anti semite?

 

[willemvanoranje]

of course not

 

[HuckFinn]

Well, I for one am a person with a great deal of admiration for the Jewish people... they are a resilient lot, and have, throughout history, had a greater percentage of great minds among their midst than perhaps any other people.

However, this does not translate into me allowing them any special privileges, not even after the Holocaust. Sure, **** happened to them, but this doesn't justify making **** happen upon others.

I am not going to make actual statements about the ME in this thread as it is not the topic, let's just say that I consider the Israeli and Palestinians to deserve each other... the braver one stops the massacre first. While this is not happening, I will just simply keep on pointing out the flaws of each participant when talking to them... and this of course results in both sides hating me

What saddens me is the ease with which any Israeli criticism turns into accusations of anti-Semitism. Take the recent EU poll for example... of course any person in their right mind will consider the ME one of the most dangerous flashpoints in the world, and as Israel is the military top dog of the region, it also has a great deal of responsibility and is thus a major threat to world peace... it's the potential that matters, and the fact that the place is a barrel of gunpowder to begin with.

The Israeli should really take note not to resort to the anti-semitism defense so easily. So doing they risk alienating people who genuinely want to think good of them... like yours truly.

I would slightly agree with Zultan. Israel is the Jewish state and I am pretty sure that a great deal of Jews are supporters of Israel. Also, the "problem" of Israel is... want it or not... in existence because of the Jewish people. It can be difficult to distinguish between the actual supporters of a policy and the general group that is associated with the larger issue... but I will try my best.

This is a somewhat similar situation to certain "Sweden vs. Finland" thread where the conversation bogged down to arguments on whether I may call a Fenno-Swede a Fenno-Swede and whether the language issue has a legitimate connection to that particular group of people... if that group exists at all. This kind of argument has its merits, but only up to a point... after that point it serves as an obfuscation device that prevents us from getting to the actual matter at hand because we can't even talk about it without using "illegitimate" references to the actors of a situation...

 

[Akka]

I don't know if it's anti-semtism or political racism.

But I'm pretty sure it's the illegitimate part of the resistance toward Israel actions.

 

[ZultanofZex]

BTW, I think the author to the article looks quite weird himself, and a quick search for his name (no, not ion google, in my local library) he has made some pretty weird statements himself...

I could probably pull one line out of anything he's written and make that become racism as well.

 

[Little Raven]

I think the confusion people deal with is that they feel what seems to be happening now is a little bit different than "traditional" anti-semetism.

What I'm calling "traditional anti-semetism" is the classic hatred of Jews because they are Jews. (and Jews control the world, or Jews are money-loving, or whatever other excuse they come up with.) This kind of thinking is heavily frowned upon in most societies today, and even though people continue to hold these kind of beliefs, it is considered most unacceptable to air such views in polite company.

However, it is certainly acceptable to hate policies of particular nation-states, as well it should be. After all, while some would argue the necessity of such actions, few would argue that Israel has not/is not engaging in some very messy situations. This allows people to feel justified in their anger.

What they fail to see is that hating all Jews because some Jews do very nasty things to the Palestinians is just as bad as hating all Jews because some Jews are money-grubbing. (I've never actually met a money-grubbing Jew, but I'm sure they exist.) No matter how much you may disagree with the policies of Israel, randomly targetting Jews is not only morally reprehensible, it's also counter-productive. Jews around the world do not act as one any more than Muslims or any other group of people. There exists a vast array of opinion and belief. If you really want to change Israel policies, you're much better off talking to Jews than trying to blow them up.

Unfortunately, I think many proponents of Israel have deliberately contributed to the blurring of the line between anti-Zionism (and I am using this term in the specific sense of Israel holding the territories at the expense of Palestinians, since that is what Zionism is fast coming to represent) and anti-Semetism by seeking to label any critic of Israel an anti-Semite. It is important to preserve the distinction of someone who hates Jews merely for being Jewish, and someone who hates particular aspects of Israeli policy.

 

[Richard III]

Little Raven, as far as I'm concerned, blowing up a Jew with an explosive detonation is "traditional anti-semitism" enough for me.

 

[Little Raven]

Originally posted by Richard III
Little Raven, as far as I'm concerned, blowing up a Jew with an explosive detonation is "traditional anti-semitism" enough for me.

Oh absolutely. I wasn't attempting to defend those who blow up Jews because they hate Israel. If you notice, I say that I think the belief that somehow blowing up a Jew because Israel does nasty stuff is different than blowing up a Jew because Jews control the world is the source of their error. I think that people believe the two are somehow different, because in one case, the rationale for the belief is generally accepted as true, whereas in the other, most people laugh at the notion. But the truth is that your motive for hating all Jews is irrelevant. If you hate someone simply for the fact that they are Jewish, then regardless of your "motive" for hatred, you are definately an anti-semite.

 

[Sims2789]

let me just say this: all christian anti-semites are idiots, since jesus was jewish. all non-christian anti-semites are just psychos. the christian ones are also psychos(not litterally psychos, for the most part, but you get the picture).

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by sims2789
let me just say this: all christian anti-semites are idiots, since jesus was jewish. all non-christian anti-semites are just psychos. the christian ones are also psychos(not litterally psychos, for the most part, but you get the picture).

I think "turn the other cheek," "thou shalt not kill/do no murder," "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor," and "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" are much more compelling arguments, personally.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

Arabs have a hard time drawing the line between Jew and Israeli... just like they have a hard time distinguishing between American and Jesus-worshiping infidel.

It sure doesn't help when certain leaders in these two countries are constantly justifying their actions with the manichean and evangelistic rhetoric of their respective faiths. And it doesn't help that the politics there are so radicalized that policies are drawn on religious and racial lines - by BOTH parties.

 

[IceBlaZe]

BTW, I think the author to the article looks quite weird himself, and a quick search for his name (no, not ion google, in my local library) he has made some pretty weird statements himself...

I could probably pull one line out of anything he's written and make that become racism as well.

Feel free to do so.
By most moderate Israelis, he is considered brilliant on many accounts.
He was a brilliant lawyer, he is now the duke for law school in Hertzeliah.
Thanks to him we have very important two basic laws in Israel: The law of man's dignity and freedom and the law of freedom of occupation choice.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Iceblace:

I live in Sweden. Have very little contact with jews, although there are some in my family. (father Jewish, mother Christian...and then their kids, not raised as Jews, but still very aware of customs etc...)

I agree with the author quoted in the article. I think (notice think, since I am not some allseeing God) that a people, any people, can be influenced by a cause, a feeling whatever, and then become "spiritually blinded".

Do you think Jews all over the world have a certain common opinion, similiar for each?
How's that? By Telepathy?

Reading through this Forum alone, I see the same statments being made about the Chineese, The Arabs, The Americans, The Europeans...so what is the big deal about it ll when referred to The Jews?

Generalizing as a whole is bad for itself.
However, the comparison between Jews and Europeans/Americans/Arabs/Chinese is socially incorrect. Not the same type of group.

RIII: OK, I've baited you enough, so you can stop hitting those 5 keys on your keyboard...as I said above, it is perhaps lazy to say Jews about citizens of Israel, but it happens to be the only Jewish state, and being Jewish is a sure passport to gain access to that country.

How many Jews do not have an Israeli Citizenship, nor even want one?

Would you really have been this upset if he would have said "Norweigians club seals" instead of "Some people, of both Norweigian citizenship and others, of different religion and racial heritage, have, with the consent of the Norweigian Govn. clubbed seal cubs".

So you think Jews=Israelis? If you compare Jews with Norwegians, you must think all Jews are members of the same nationalist group (e.g. Zionists).

 

[ZultanofZex]

Iceblace, if you gonna use arguments like "most sane people" when someone doesn't salute that author, why post that article in the first plce, if you've already made up your mind about his immunity to critizism?

And until proven otherwise, I do believe that most Jews support Israel. And these days telepathy can be replaced by reading the same papers, using internet, talking on the phone, watching TV.

And yet again, this seems like a storm in a glass of water to me, about some author using the word Jew instead of Israeli.

Why is it incorrect to comare Jews and the other examples of people? I don't get that "different group" remark?

 

[Yaniv]

Originally posted by ZultanofZex
Why is it incorrect to comare Jews and the other examples of people? I don't get that "different group" remark?

Judism is a religon and can be compared with Christians, Muslims, Budists etc.
Israeli is a nationalism and can be compared with Amreicans, Europeans, Chinese etc.