Where'd the 3.13 change list thread go?

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It probably depends if you read only his newest post in isolation or take previous posts into account, like
this slightly older post from alexman:

But the changelog-thread was about three weeks after that post. "Patch going to testing, expecting three weeks ---> three weeks passes -> Patch is done, but unfortunately not out THIS week", testing not mentioned this time. Dead horse meets stick once again I guess, but I for one have huge stamina in discussing stuff as long as it stays civil :)
 
Most of the aggressive posting was towards the trolling fanboys who kept antagonising anyone that didn't agree with Firaxis' way of going about this situation which has been rather poor.

Do you really want to bring back the finger pointing game?

Better communication at CFC would've prevented any problems, but Firaxis chose to ignore the community for over 2 weeks, including at least a week where everyone was just excited that a patch was coming. They chose not to give us an update after a time they specified it would be released had passed without the patch.

The part you're missing here is that "Firaxis" didn't post any information to begin with. So "Firaxis" didn't ignore the community because "Firaxis" hadn't been addressing them. What we did have is one person who posted the changelog for people as a way of giving people a "heads up" on the upcoming patch. The fact that person also happened to work at Firaxis was, in most ways, inconsequential to their posting here.

The sad thing is that I know that neither sides of the "divide" on this issue wanted the result we've got. Unfortunately, the subsequent wrangling has caused us to lose a valuable source of information. That's a shame for anyone who's a Civ fan.

Bh
 
Exactly, if Firaxis treats their players like crap, expect a much higher number of people to illegally get the game rather than buying it.

The debate as to how good/bad Take2 is has been explored to death, so I won't comment on that aspect. However:

It really pains me to see your expectation of people obtaining the game (or future games) illegally for a number of reasons:

1) Software piracy is illegal. If it was not, there would be no games industry to speak of. Undeniable fact.

2) My own opinion is that people who would follow this path are just having their cake and eating it. If one wishes to make a statement about dissatisfaction then boycott products, fair enough. But to then obtain the product illegally shows no integrity on their behalf, and simply negates any serious complaints they have with the company in question.

3) I hate piraters with a passion. They are slowly ruining the games industry for paying customers like myself by encouraging publishers to attach more and more flawed copy protection schemes. This is not the fault of the companies, or some corporate conspiracy as some would have you believe. It is a necessary response to thieves.

So please, if anyone here wishes to make reasoned complaints regarding Civ or its publisher they should be able to do so. All I would ask is that we do not give validation to software thieves, and show some integrity in our own actions as customers. How can one say that Take2 is behaving badly if our own actions are reprehensible? :nono:

P.S. I thought we had agreed to stop using such language as "fanboys" or "whiners" :)
 
Er, the fact they are recruiting patch testers for Bioshock doesn't seem relevant to Civ's situation.

Bh
 
3) I hate piraters with a passion. They are slowly ruining the games industry for paying customers like myself by encouraging publishers to attach more and more flawed copy protection schemes. This is not the fault of the companies, or some corporate conspiracy as some would have you believe. It is a necessary response to thieves.
It is before everything else a remedy worse than the disease. Unprotected games but overall good customer support is a far better option. Galactic Civilizations II is the perfect example of that.
 
There is a lot of misinformation floating around. We need to distinguish between fact and opinion and I'll do my best to distinguish between the two in this post. It's my opinion that, given Firaxis' reliance on this community for its help with bugs, testing, etc., the substance of the debate over their actions has merit. The form of the debate has been tawdry at times, but a lot of that has to do with not having the facts straight.

Both Azzaman and Ori have made good points in terms of setting the record straight. To follow on to Ori's point, as best I can tell (and I'd be happy to be shown otherwise), Firaxis is now a wholly-owned, unincorporated division of Take2. I also know for certain that their financials are consolidated. Therefore, there is no legal or financial distinction between the two. Further, Take2 had revenues of ~$1 Billion in its last fiscal year and currently employees more than 2,000 people. So, in my opinion, there is no basis for concluding they do not have adequate resources to communicate with the customers. Further, since Take2/Firaxis does not go to the time, effort and expense to host their own forum, but relies on this Board and Apolyton, IMO there is a very good argument they have at least a moral obligation to communicate periodically and accurately with the forums. But that's just my opinion.

Back to facts.

Before they take on a life of their own, there are a couple of myths which need to be dispelled. I was part of the discussion -- for better or worse -- in the other thread from the beginning. I cannot recall a single instance of "hate and vitriol" directed at Alex. To be sure, there was criticism -- strong criticism, with more than an occasional unhealthy dose of sarcasm (myself included). But nowhere do I recall seeing any hate or vitriol directed at Alex. Unfortunately, we reserved the worst remarks for each other.

Secondly, there is the "Don't shoot the messenger" canard. Shooting the messenger means that the messenger was ordered to deliver an unpleasant message over which he/she has no control. If Alex had been acting on the orders of his superiors at Firaxis, the "Don't shoot the messenger" defense might be applicable. But he made it very clear he was not acting on behalf of Friaxis, but rather on his own. Under those circumstances, he was not just the messenger since he created the message and decided to deliver it himself.

Lastly, there is the notion that Alex was "just trying to be helpful." I sincerely believe he was trying to be helpful. However, to say he was "just" trying to be helpful is at odds with all the facts.

In addition to the helpful changelist (posted to the obvious delight and gratitude of many people), Alex also posted a poll, soliciting opinions as to whether the patch was "worth the wait." I thought it curious at the time (and posted as much) how anyone could answer the question as to whether the patch (or any product) was "worth the wait," since neither "worth" nor "wait" can be adequately measured until the product is in hand. I thought it similarly curious that Alex would solicit opinions about the patch before the "worth" could be determined through usage and the "wait" quantified by actual delivery.

In retrospect, it's clear to me at least that Alex was not simply soliciting our opinions. He was seeking our approval for the apparent (although not actual) completion of an obviously difficult and arduous project. Most people (myself included) find "fishing for compliments" distasteful. And, in my view, that's exactly what was happening. I also believe most people find it more than a little annoying when someone seems to offer them something, but then takes it away (think: Charlie Brown/Lucy/Football).

His reaction (and sometimes lack thereof) over the last two weeks to the responses he solicited only reinforces that view. Having not gotten the universal praise he apparently sought, not surprisingly, he reacted poorly, in a distinctly passive aggressive manner. After giving us the silent treatment for a couple of weeks, he gave us responses such as, "we can remain silent, if you prefer," and the last bastion of the unwilling, "It's not my job." Ultimately he engaged in the archetypal childish behavior and took his marbles and went home.

Again, it's only my opinion, but from a business and professional standpoint, I find his behavior throughout this sordid little escapade to be childish, petty, punitive and deplorable. Just to be perfectly clear, I do not find Alex himself to be childish, petty, punitive and deplorable. I do not know him personally and am thus in no position to judge him, even if I wanted to do so, which I do not. But I am in a position to judge his behavior in this affair. And I find his behavior to have been sorely lacking. For those who are tempted to respond by being critical of my behavior and that of other customers, and who believe we should have been more understanding in our approach, I remind you that we are paying customers. Although we live in a free society, with all people created equal, there are relationships within this society which are unequal. And the seller/customer relationship is one of those unequal relationships. The seller has affirmative obligations to the seller (e.g., the warranty of fitness), which the buyer does not have. The buyer's duties tend to be more proscriptive (e.g., no illegal copying, etc.). So, as Alex might say: "It's Not Our Job." Complaining customers probably goes all the way back to Adam & Eve and the apple. If a seller is not prepared -- financially, logistically or psychically -- to deal with customer complaints, he/she ought not to be in business. Customers owe no such obligation to sellers. Do we, as human beings have a moral obligation to attempt to be civil? Absolutely. But sellers must be prepared to deal with even its most uncivil of customers.

Ultimately, I’m not sure we should have expected more from someone who felt the need to post a poll seeking approval for his work before that work was complete. Here is a graphic example of the result of the attitude, “It’s Not My Job:”

its%20not%20my%20job%20award%20goes%20to.jpg


In my view, Alex fails to appreciate that both Firaxis in general and he, in particular, benefit immeasurably from those who take a broader view than: “It’s Not My Job.” Where would Firaxis be if, when they asked for feedback, alpha or beta testers, etc., the response they got was: "It's Not My Job?" Moreover, where would he be if (as has been reported) in 2004 when he was asked to be a pre-alpha tester for CivIV (which reportedly led to his being offered the employment he currently enjoys) he had replied: "It's Not My Job?" Although it may not be within Alex' job description to do so, it is most certainly Take2/Firaxis' job to satisfy its customers, not the other way around. Further, by soliciting the opinions/seeking the approval of this community, Alex needed to be professional enough to accept whatever answers were forthcoming. As others have noted, we are quite literally the hand that feeds Take2/Firaxis. That hand has been both slapped and bitten.

I'm going to stress what I've said before: In my opinion BtS is a great game. Despite whatever bugs it may have (or even continue to have), it continues to give me many hours of enjoyment. It was worth every penny, whether we ever get another patch. I sincerely say: "Job well done." I'm also sure that the patch will only serve to enhance my enjoyment. But the handling of the previous patch and this one have been very poor in terms of communication and customer relations and Firaxis deserves most (if not all) the criticism directed towards it. If they're smart, they'll view the criticism as free market research and use it to their advantage, much as they do with bug reports and other feedback from this forum.
 
Better communication at CFC would've prevented any problems, but Firaxis chose to ignore the community for over 2 weeks, including at least a week where everyone was just excited that a patch was coming. They chose not to give us an update after a time they specified it would be released had passed without the patch.

I'm not interested in who's right and who's wrong. It doesn't matter whether Firaxis could/should be better at customer relations [1]. It doesn't matter whether there are some people on the board who would defend Firaxis come what may.

All that matters is that there's going to be less info at CFC because people got angry at the one guy who came to tell us something. Maybe some would say that's Firaxis' fault. So what? We lose out as a result of our behaviour, no matter how justified it may be.

[1] Though I sometimes feel people would prefer developers like MOO3. Trouble was, they spent so much time interacting with the message boards they forgot to write a game. Think on that when criticising Firaxis' priorities.
 
The part you're missing here is that "Firaxis" didn't post any information to begin with. So "Firaxis" didn't ignore the community because "Firaxis" hadn't been addressing them. What we did have is one person who posted the changelog for people as a way of giving people a "heads up" on the upcoming patch. The fact that person also happened to work at Firaxis was, in most ways, inconsequential to their posting here.

Isn't there some correlation between him having that list of changes to present and his job at Firaxis? It seems a bit of a stretch to assume that someone who is known to work at a company presents information about a product of that company which he works on for said company and claim he did not do it as a representative of the company. And even if that was his intention, it will look as if it is done by a representative for the company.

The sad thing is that I know that neither sides of the "divide" on this issue wanted the result we've got. Unfortunately, the subsequent wrangling has caused us to lose a valuable source of information. That's a shame for anyone who's a Civ fan.

Is it the wranglings fault alone if it leads to less information, or does the fault, at least in part, lie with those who couldn't deal with the wrangling apropriately? The answer isn't obvious. Probably a bit of both; your side, my side, and the truth.
 
Secondly, there is the "Don't shoot the messenger" canard. Shooting the messenger means that the messenger was ordered to deliver an unpleasant message over which he/she has no control. If Alex had been acting on the orders of his superiors at Firaxis, the "Don't shoot the messenger" defense might be applicable. But he made it very clear he was not acting on behalf of Friaxis, but rather on his own. Under those circumstances, he was not just the messenger since he created the message and decided to deliver it himself.

The "don't shoot the messenger" comment was in regards to the delay of the patch. That, imo, is a valid use of the term, because the delay of the patch was outside of Alex's control.

In addition to the helpful changelist (posted to the obvious delight and gratitude of many people), Alex also posted a poll, soliciting opinions as to whether the patch was "worth the wait." I thought it curious at the time (and posted as much) how anyone could answer the question as to whether the patch (or any product) was "worth the wait," since neither "worth" nor "wait" can be adequately measured until the product is in hand. I thought it similarly curious that Alex would solicit opinions about the patch before the "worth" could be determined through usage and the "wait" quantified by actual delivery.

I thought it was pretty clear that the "worth the wait" was based on an evaluation of the changes in the patch. You don't need to actually have the patch in your hands to realize that fixing the crash bug, or the endless "waiting" screen is a good thing. You can make a reasonable assessment of the patch based on the change log.

His reaction (and sometimes lack thereof) over the last two weeks to the responses he solicited only reinforces that view. Having not gotten the universal praise he apparently sought, not surprisingly, he reacted poorly, in a distinctly passive aggressive manner. After giving us the silent treatment for a couple of weeks, he gave us responses such as, "we can remain silent, if you prefer," and the last bastion of the unwilling, "It's not my job." Ultimately he engaged in the archetypal childish behavior and took his marbles and went home.

Here I have to not only disagree with you, but take issue with your ascribing motivations to him. You don't know what reaction he was hoping for, and suggesting he was looking for "universal praise" is highly suspect. You suggest that he "gave us the silent treatment", yet you have no way of knowing the situation that led to him not posting. You're merely assigning him the characteristics you want him to have with no evidence to support you.

Disagreeing with his actions is one thing. Trying to claim you know why he acted like that is another. And it's a claim you can't honestly make.

In my view, Alex fails to appreciate that both Firaxis in general and he, in particular, benefit immeasurably from those who take a broader view than: “It’s Not My Job.” Where would Firaxis be if, when they asked for feedback, alpha or beta testers, etc., the response they got was: "It's Not My Job?"

Firaxis wouldn't "be" anywhere. The ones who benefit from bug fixes are the people who bought the game. Therefore it is enlightened self-interest for us to give feedback because it improves the game we play. Saying "It's not our job" would be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Moreover, where would he be if (as has been reported) in 2004 when he was asked to be a pre-alpha tester for CivIV (which reportedly led to his being offered the employment he currently enjoys) he had replied: "It's Not My Job?"

That's a very poor example. He almost certainly took the pre-alpha tester position because he wanted to take it. Had he not wanted to take it, I'm sure that option was available to him as well.

If they're smart, they'll view the criticism as free market research and use it to their advantage, much as they do with bug reports and other feedback from this forum.

I'm sure they will - by not providing us any information at all. The forum's response to "no information" has been decidely preferable to providing us with any. Is that the response you were looking for? It certainly isn't what I prefer.

Bh
 
I'm sure they will - by not providing us any information at all. The forum's response to "no information" has been decidely preferable to providing us with any. Is that the response you were looking for? It certainly isn't what I prefer.

But that would be giving up. I for one hope they are bigger than that, and use the situation to improve, not just give up.
 
Isn't there some correlation between him having that list of changes to present and his job at Firaxis? It seems a bit of a stretch to assume that someone who is known to work at a company presents information about a product of that company which he works on for said company and claim he did not do it as a representative of the company. And even if that was his intention, it will look as if it is done by a representative for the company.

That's really a problem of human nature, in my mind. Try to reverse the situation in your own mind. You've been hanging out on a forum for years. You manage to get a job with the company the makes the game the forum is about. You still are friends with a bunch of people on the forum. So you decide to help out the people on the forum by throwing them a little advanced information about an upcoming patch.

I'm not saying that can't get misinterpreted - of course it can. The reality is that a lot of the people on the forum now weren't around with Alex was "just a member" here. So for them, he can't seem like "just a member" now, he appears to be "Firaxis". I think that's what Alex has now realized, and that's why we won't see him making such posts in the future.

Is it the wranglings fault alone if it leads to less information, or does the fault, at least in part, lie with those who couldn't deal with the wrangling apropriately? The answer isn't obvious. Probably a bit of both; your side, my side, and the truth.

Ah, the old three-edged sword. ;) I'm not trying to assign blame. I'm just saying it's unfortunate that we're losing a valuable source of information, for whatever reason that is.

Bh
 
But that would be giving up. I for one hope they are bigger than that, and use the situation to improve, not just give up.

I just think that all Firaxis did was say "OK" to Alex.

Said that, I do hope they can improve it. One person(professional) for public relations would be enough for the whole CIV series, no?
 
But that would be giving up. I for one hope they are bigger than that, and use the situation to improve, not just give up.

I don't see it as giving up. I see it as looking rationally at the situation. People on the other side have said it repeatedly: "Firaxis caused the problem by setting up an expectation that the patch would be released". Logically then, the simplest solution is to no longer create an expectation of a patch. I'm not saying it's the only option, but it's certainly the simplest. And I don't expect Take Two to be paying enough attention to this to decide they need to assign some PR person to deal with it, as much as that might be prefered.

Bh
 
There is a lot of misinformation floating around. We need to distinguish between fact and opinion and I'll do my best to distinguish between the two in this post. It's my opinion that, given Firaxis' reliance on this community for its help with bugs, testing, etc., the substance of the debate over their actions has merit. The form of the debate has been tawdry at times, but a lot of that has to do with not having the facts straight.


I'm going to stress what I've said before: In my opinion BtS is a great game. Despite whatever bugs it may have (or even continue to have), it continues to give me many hours of enjoyment. It was worth every penny, whether we ever get another patch. I sincerely say: "Job well done." I'm also sure that the patch will only serve to enhance my enjoyment. But the handling of the previous patch and this one have been very poor in terms of communication and customer relations and Firaxis deserves most (if not all) the criticism directed towards it. If they're smart, they'll view the criticism as free market research and use it to their advantage, much as they do with bug reports and other feedback from this forum.

Look, I'm not going to try to go into a "who said what" but I just want people to reflect on their behaviour. I went to your profile and pulled up all your posts in that thread. I couldn't find a single one which was positive about the patch. Compare and contrast your last paragraph above with what you actually said in the patch thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5957368#post5957368

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5961686&postcount=254

All this is well before the patch was delayed.

If people really want the facts, I suggest they read through the whole thread and draw their own conclusions.
 
But that would be giving up. I for one hope they are bigger than that, and use the situation to improve, not just give up.

Have we really given them a solid reason to act they way you hope they do?

I'm afraid the objective analysis leads rather to the result that Bhruic mentioned, which is basically:

Giving CFC information: costs time, leads to flame wars and personal attacks if not perfectly presented

Giving CFC no information: does not cost time, might lead to threads complaining about the lack of a patch, but has never led to flame wars so far

Seeing this, the decision is rather obvious. Also, keep in mind that several users have specifically said that they would have *preferred* no information at all. I don't like it, I don't like the result at all, but I find it hard to interpret the facts (that are lying open in two threads now) in any other way.

Of course, you could theorize whether withdrawal from forums would hurt Firaxis in the long run. Might be true, although forum users tend to overestimate their impact as customers a lot, and the effect would probably be pretty small even if there was any. But that's simply not the question at hand, because Firaxis *does not* officially use these forums anyway, and never has. We just used to have some kind souls who kept contact to the fans - like Mike Breitkreutz in the old days, like Soren Johnson when Civ4 came out, like Jon Shafer and Alexman now. So far, these people have been treated with respect, even when people radically disagreed with their opinions or didn't like their product or design visions. This has obviously changed now, so the question is not whether Firaxis should officially endorse these forums, but rather how we can turn these forums into a place they *want* to visit again. You don't think that any official endorsement will lead to useful information when Firaxians don't really *want* to came here, do you?
 
Also: for Civilization Take2/Firaxis specifically links to this forum for Tech Support so basically they outsourced their tech support for this game to the posters in this forum - so I do expect them to treat this forum and the posters here with more respect then other forums.

Does firaxis pay anything for this service?

Shouldn't they be a little more tolerant? They did link to a forum that has the word fanatic in it.

No matter how you slice it - if you believe that everyone just interpreted alexman or not... the ball was dropped. The "ball" was communication with customers.

The initial information was warmly received and after it became obvious that people were misinterpreting the words that alexman used (or if the situation changed to make alexmans words inaccurate) - an effort to communicate should have occurred.

If it is going to be alexman/firaxis opinion that they do not need to communicate with their customers on this site - perhaps they should remove the links referring their tech support here?

ps - saying that engineers are not customer relations people does not excuse the fiasco that occured here... you don't have to be in customer relations to communicate effectively.
 
I don't see it as giving up. I see it as looking rationally at the situation. People on the other side have said it repeatedly: "Firaxis caused the problem by setting up an expectation that the patch would be released". Logically then, the simplest solution is to no longer create an expectation of a patch. I'm not saying it's the only option, but it's certainly the simplest. And I don't expect Take Two to be paying enough attention to this to decide they need to assign some PR person to deal with it, as much as that might be prefered.

Bh

IMO that would definately have been better than creating false expectations and not following up with anything of any use.
 
Look, I'm not going to try to go into a "who said what" but I just want people to reflect on their behaviour. I went to your profile and pulled up all your posts in that thread. I couldn't find a single one which was positive about the patch. Compare and contrast your last paragraph above with what you actually said in the patch thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5957368#post5957368

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5961686&postcount=254

All this is well before the patch was delayed.

If people really want the facts, I suggest they read through the whole thread and draw their own conclusions.

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting I've misrepresented my earlier posts or, worse yet, I'm a liar? If you're trying to suggest I mispresented when I said that I'd complimented the game before, you're mistaken. My "job well done" statement was a direct lift from my post here last Saturday:
I've said it before and I'll say it again: It's a great game. Despite whatever bugs it may have (or even continue to have), it continues to give me many hours of enjoyment. It was worth every penny, whether we ever get another patch. I sincerely say: "Job well done."
(http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6002481#post6002481)

In this post (on Sunday), (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5996372#post5996372) I stress how many hours of enjoyment the game has given me. Here, too (last Wednesday): http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5988103#post5988103. There are more.

If you're trying to say I haven't praised the patch, well then guilty as charged, since I've said repeatedly I can't evaluate it until I have it. Great changelist, but the patch itself awaits judgment. But I didn't say I praised the patch in my previous post.

If you're trying to say I've been critical of the implementation of certain elements of the game (spy spamming, corporations and vassalage), indeed I have. But so what? I've also made it quite clear that any bugs in the game have not significantly reduced my enjoyment of the game:


Since my posts are public, I understand I have to live with them. But please don't misrepresent them. I've consistently said two things: (1) The game is great, it works for me and I enjoy it very much; and (2) the last two patches were poorly handled. I'm not perfect and I've admitted as much. But one thing I'm not is a liar, nor do I intentionally misrepresent what I've said before in this forum. So please, get your facts straight before you suggest I look at my behavior.
 
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting I've misrepresented my earlier posts or, worse yet, I'm a liar? If you're trying to suggest I mispresented when I said that I'd complimented the game before, you're mistaken.

My point is only how people came across in that thread. I doubt Alexman read through all the threads to get a detailed view of each person's position.

I don't want to drag this unpleasantness out any longer, but I'll try and leave this last thought. In life, we often have to deal with people who act in a foolish or annoying ways but who (sometimes unjustifiably) have power over us. The way to deal with them is not to shout and scream, but to show respect to them and try to bring them along with you.
 
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