Where's Adolf?

[Polopapolo]

In a historic perspective a great leader is someone future generations will refer to with pride. I believe this is the case with all leaders in the game.

The french admire Napoleon
The americans admire Washington
Germans admiring Hitler?!

Point is: He is a figure of national shame over there. The darkest period of their history. Which german would want to play him? Gives me the creeps just thinking about it...

I foresee arguments about Genghis khan and Mao Zedong but ask the chinese, and the mongols in the forum and there's a real debate over those two, but Hitler... c'mon!

I don't know enough about american history to give you a good example but how would you like it if Gerald Ford was the american great leader?! Would you play him as anything but a joke?

I wish someone would just go all out and mod the game so you get all the worse warmongers and tyrants history has to offer: Stallin, Paul Pot, Hitler, Pinochet, Hussein, etc. Add a "slave" ressource and ethnic cleansing while your at it!

Must be real satisfting to win by conquest and have Swastika flying all over the world... Hey ma! Look what I did!

 

[thenooblet22]

Heh, I would play has Hitler... then adopt Judaism as my state religion

 

[whitecrow]

I despise Nazism and I know displaying Adolf's face and things like swastika is quite illegal in some countries.

But some AI only "badguy" leaders will be fun. Your goal is defeat the "evil empire" and liberate humanity.

 

[Rane Khan]

Now I realize that some of these other leaders arnt exactly fairy tale kings. but they had a dynamic set of abilities that allowed them to rule over many years prosperously... Hitler was just a great public speaker... In terms of statesmanship he bankrupted Germany, and in matters of military he ****ed over the Nazi fighting force with his paranoia and delusions of Grandeur...

Pretty much what I was about to post so I'm glad I looked on the second page.

Only good reason for Hitler being in the game would be for a WW2 scenario, imo. Hitler being quoted when you discover Fascism is almost like giving him to much credit.

I foresee arguments about Genghis khan and Mao Zedong but ask the chinese, and the mongols in the forum and there's a real debate over those two, but Hitler... c'mon!

While I'm not going to comment on Mao I don't quite understand why Genghis is such a problem with a lot of people. He advocated religious tolerance among his populace, he changed feuding tribes into a continental empire that was ruled by merit instead of social position or wealth. His war tactics aren't all that different then those of some other leader in the game.

 

[Errata]

I think its totally understandable that he's not in the default game, for the reasons people have mentioned. But the game has great modding abilities, so its not like he will never be added by anyone.

I'm holding out for the SDK to do some real work on the AI. I'd like to work on an evil AI personality that is particularly difficult but satisfying to defeat. Then associate that personality with leaders like Hitler and Stalin. By then presumably someone will have done graphics for these leaders for their own mods.

 

[Abaddon]

Thankfully any leader you want can be modded into this game

 

[Armorydave]

Could anyone back up their comments that he wasn't the greatest leader, I mean how can you top conquering near all of Europe....?

He planted a bullet in his own brain while his flash in the pan empire crumbled around him in ruins. That puts him below Dan Quayle in my eyes and undeserving on his merits as a conqueror (political correctness aside).

Even if they wanted to include him it would be commerical suicide/stupidity. No Nazi images can be included in a game that goes into Germany and probably other EU states. It is literally against the law in Germany and the chances of offending far exceed the possible rewards in every other nation. For every Nazi yahoo or gaming grognard that wants to play Hitler there are 10 people that will be offended by his presence.

Mod him in if you want him. I might even download him so I can kick his ass with FDR. Churchill is far more deserving of a presence in Civ 4 than Hitler.

 

[goldenflame53]

Hitler can not be included in the game because it is very popular in Germany. In Germany, there are very strict laws against neo-Nazism. Primarily, it is completely illegal to sell or distribute anything which may be considered "Nazi paraphanalia". This includes copies of Mein Kampf. So sales of the game would literally be illegal in Germany if Hitler was included.

 

[warroom]

THere is a difference between Hitler being a "great leader" and a powerful influence on world history. He doesn't have to be "nice" to be included in the game. Yes, he ran Germany into the ground, killed masses of people and adopted radical police government... which is exactly how many play the game. Do you really think G. Kahn was a terribly nice guy? Ceasar?

I think he should be included becuase beating him would be so much fun. In fact, making treaties with him and then breaking them would be fun. I don't want to BE Hitler, I want the chance to BEAT Hitler.

 

[Armorydave]

THere is a difference between Hitler being a "great leader" and a powerful influence on world history. He doesn't have to be "nice" to be included in the game. Yes, he ran Germany into the ground, killed masses of people and adopted radical police government... which is exactly how many play the game. Do you really think G. Kahn was a terribly nice guy? Ceasar?

Ceaser and Kahn birthed empires that dominated a huge area for their time and lasted centuries. They died at the pinnacle of power one of natural causes the other assasination. Hitler's "empire" lasted less than two decades and he commited suicide as it collapsed. He was most notable for his mass slaughter of civiliam populations which was more a function of insanity and technology than "leadership". Hitler couldn't hold Ceaser or Khan's historical jock-straps.

I wouldn't mind slapping him around either but he does not belong in the commercial release on his merits as a leader regardless of financial concerns.

 

[allnamestaken12]

Hitler isn't in because they needed that aggressive/expansive trait combo for Genghis, who was a better warmonger anyway. But comparing him to Genghis and Caesar is a touch unfair. Genghis had the most powerful cavalry that has ever existed, Caesar had legions fighting barbarians, and Hitler, by comparison, had a trashed Germany which had a huge communist policy. Hitler was excellent when it came to inspiring and reviving Germany. Keep in mind, mid 30's Germany was quite sound. Hitler began to believe too strongly in the power of the wermacht in the end and had WWI tactics involving retreating and battle lines, but generally could have been a corporal. Basically, Hitler WAS the greatest warmonger of the 20th century, and he will probably be in a later civ version.

 

[allnamestaken12]

mistyped, communistParty

 

[Anomaly]

I'm not sure Hitler was as great as some people here try to put him. He came to power almost by chance, because senior German leaders thought the small, inconspicuous man would be easy to control and get rid of. Once in charge he used deception, massive propaganda and murder to gain absolute control and rid himself of all rivals, but I don`t think that makes a great leader.

Concerning the impressive conquests of the Wehrmacht, I think those are better attributed to the immense output capability of the german industrial warmachine, the competence of german generals like Rommel and the excellent training of their troops. Hitler had rather little influence on all of these. All he did was to coordinate the resources at his disposal, which in the end, he led into disaster. More often than not and especially during the end, Hitler even became more and more a liability, by often conflicting with his generals on tactical situations and loosing grip with the realities on the ground.

So, to sum it all up. In my opinion, Hitler had excellent resources and excellent personell at his disposal, which make him look like a great leader, when in fact, the greatness was in the people and the land he led into disaster with his fanatical and insane views of the world.

 

[sealboy6]

Hitler, while maybe not a great person, was a great leader.

After World War I, Germany faced a massive debt because of war costs. To pay back debt, they kept printing money; they faced massive inflation and their economy was in ruins. This was a time when almost the entire world was in a depression. Hitler was just a part of the government, when he asked the chancellor, through a clause in the government, if he could rule for a few months because he felt he could do good. Once he was in power, he changed the rules and stayed as dictator. Under his "war machine", he brough back Germany from the depths of economic ruin, and by going to war, he brought he U.S. and the rest of Europe out of a depression. As a leader, his charisma and charm were uncanny; he had the ability to make anybody in his nation swoon. No man without some charisma could rally an entire country to hate one ethnicity. His military leadership was lacking, as he didn't trust his generals, but this has always been an issue, as many leaders who give power to their inferiors lose more than they gain. Hitler was an awful person, but as a leader, he had great ability. Besides, it's not like Germany faced too many issues, as they have the third best economy in the world right now, only 60 years after the end of World War II and only 15 years since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Napoleon, who many count as one of the greatest leaders ever to rule, had the same issue. He only kept power for about 15 years; he expanded very quickly, and ulitmately, he lost by invading Russia just the same way as Hitler did. Before he ruled, France was always a world power; since he was dethroned, France has never been the same. He had a worse effect on his country than Hitler on his. His Continental system, which outlawed countries from trading with Britain backfired, as people hated him for stopping them from trading with their main commercial friend. He ruined their economy and left them below most of the other large countries in Europe. One major difference between him and Hitler is that his Napoleonic Code still forms the major parts of French society. Should Napoleon be in? Yes. He is the defining leader of the French. Should Hitler be in? Yes. He is the defining leader of the Germans. Hitler, in my opinion, should be in.

 

[OzzyAlyanak]

It is funny to see how less many of these people commenting on the issue know on Hitler.
Hitler does not only consist of 1939-1945... If you guys want more information, check out what he has done the decade before the WWII and how he reconstructed a pacifist Germany neutred by the Treaty of Versailles.
Yes, he may be stupid enough to attack the Ruskies during winter time and yes, he may be a power driven crazy maniac... But he was also the one that conquered almost all of Europe...
too much to say on the issue so I'll end it here.

 

[Arturus]

*no no....I am not pro Hilter or anything, just stating facts*

I think it is because we are instictively obligated to say this on this subject that explains why Hitler wasn't included.

Not only that, the game allows you to play as good leaders, not terrible ones.

 

[MattJek]

Why is hitler not in the game? Hasnt this topic already been done a thousand times already??

 

[drahnier]

I'd say most of the leaders in this game probably came pretty close to Hitler in terms of immoral behaviour, and that some were just as bad.

Related question: Do you think Germany would have been put in a game like this if Hitlers world war hadn't happened?
Are Germanys cultural accomplishments, their recent economical power and the small German provinces earlier wars against different european powers enough to be included in a game like this even without Hitler giving them all that fame?

 

[sealboy6]

I'd say most of the leaders in this game probably came pretty close to Hitler in terms of immoral behaviour, and that some were just as bad.

Related question: Do you think Germany would have been put in a game like this if Hitlers world war hadn't happened?
Are Germanys cultural accomplishments, their recent economical power and the small German provinces earlier wars against different european powers enough to be included in a game like this even without Hitler giving them all that fame?

Yes. Germany still would have been put in the game for reasons like Austria and Prussia being powers, the 30 years war, Bismarck, and World War I. They are one of the most important countries in Europe, if you count the Holy Roman Empire as Germanic.

 

[Anomaly]

Are Germanys cultural accomplishments, their recent economical power and the small German provinces earlier wars against different european powers enough to be included in a game like this even without Hitler giving them all that fame?

Hello? What about the german culture? Composers, Bach, Wagner, poets, Schiller, Goethe, philosophers, Nietzsche, Kant, scientists, Einstein, Planck, Hertz.... You are obviously not well informed on Germany on everything that goes beyond WW2.