Which Civ we should have before Civilization VI?

[meowschwitz]

I posted this in the Ideas and Suggestions thread for civs but I thought that I'd bring them up as to how they would've been cooler than the Shoshone in BNW.

The Haida (like many indigenous people of that area) are incredibly interesting culturally and lend themselves surprisingly well towards being a Civilization. Many Indigenous North American tribes struggle to have unique gameplay ideas form because the ones from the same regions had a lot of shared ideas when looking at the bigger picture, but not The Haida.

The Haida however were amongst a few peoples in North America that practiced slavery. I wanted to represent that tastefully.

They were expert coastal raiders even when Europeans started expanding towards them and Chief Koyah was particularly disruptive for European and American traders. They are often compared to the Vikings and I wanted to show this naval prowess.

They have a unique art style that blends into there tapestries and architecture. The totem poles are an iconic cultural image for them. I definitely wanted to show their prowess in that way.

The last thing I wanted to show, and ultimately couldn't put in cohesively with only 3 uniques, was the Potlatch Ceremony. It was a social construction that was also unique to this region and became the main part of their society once Manifest destiny started really pushing west.

So as you can see it was hard for me to truly decide how to represent these people and I would've definitely rather had them over the Shoshone.

But yeah I made some changes to make it a little more clear and balanced

Haida

Leader: Koyah
Capital: Ninstints
Start Bias: Coast and(?) Forest

UA: Children of the Raven and Eagle or Ships of Sequoia
Start with Sailing. Chopping down a forest in the Ancient Era grants a free* Redwood War Canoe. Forests chopped before the Classical Era grow back if the land is otherwise unimproved.

*Canoes from the UA are maintenance free until upgraded.


UU: RedWood War Canoe
Free Coastal raider 1
Unique promotion: Spoils of Conquest: that gives 33% chance to give a population point (like ruins) when killing an enemy civ's unit. (100% if city, kept on upgrade).

(Depicting their tendency to take slaves from nearby peoples)


UB: Totem Pole
replaces Monument; 3 culture instead of 2, Cost 30 production instead of 40, +15 points towards a Great Artist, Admiral, or* General every time the city grows from the Spoils of Conquest unique promotion.

*Get to choose for each city

How you'd play
I built them to feel similar to the Aztecs in that you grow tall, gain a little bit more culture, and have a talented mobile early army. The difference is that you get them in completely different ways from different settings.

First off you're going to want a healthy amount of workers to get as big a free fleet as you can before you leave the Ancient Era so going liberty and chopping trees to get the pyramids might make sense. I'd personally go with Tradition opener -> Liberty Opener -> Left side of Liberty -> Legalism and then see where to go from there.
Meanwhile you'd probably build Scout/Totem -> The other one -> Worker -> (Steal a Worker) -> Pyramids -> Settler -> Archer ->(buy a settler) -> Library -> Great Lighthouse -> National College
Science I'd go Mining (to chop) -> Masonry -> Lux resource tech-> Archery -> Pottery -> Writing -> Optics ( chop for great lighthouse with your replenished forests)
Use your big fleet to bully coastal city-states for gold and workers (maybe take over an early Island city-state if still isolated; A.K.A. nobody to take a diplo hit from.

You should be able to go tall with a very productive work force and a decent military. I could also see honor working if there are a bunch of islands with barb boats spawning (free pop!)

This will probably transition into a tall core domination game on Island maps or Culture/Tall Science on maps with less coastal capitals. Diplomacy would seem to be last as that early fleet will probably be bullying/ conquering as you get some bonuses to that.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

The problem I have with Firaxis when they choose civs, is that it seems they're not really aiming for inclusion of all human history. Instead they're appearently aiming to only include stuff we recognise. "Hey, look! Charlemagne! Attila the Hun! Gandhi!" No wonder people are asking for the Confederates, Nazi Germany and Soviet Union.

On topic, I think Kushan would be an interesting pick, with their Greco-Buddhism and all.

 

[7Akbal]

*Hittite Civ Description*

As major fanboy of the Hittites, I love the idea of a Hittite Civ! I especially like your "Land of a Thousand Gods" UA idea!
However, I have some minor nitpicks...

- That image is NOT a statue of Suppiluliuma I, the Hittite emperor... It's a statue of a ruler of a Neo-Hittite statelet also named Suppiluliuma.

- I wouldn't use the Lion Gate as the Hittite unique building... There was only one Lion Gate, and it was a bit of an anomaly... For an alternate Hittite UB I'd suggest the Seal House, a granary replacement that could do the same thing as the proposed Lion Gate (in addition to its usual granary duties, though maybe with a spin on those as well). Another option could be a Halentuwa House, a shrine replacement that could synch nicely with your proposed UA (maybe +1 Culture and/or Faith for every pantheon belief in a city?).

For leaders, I agree Suppiluliuma and Hattusili III would be the best choices, but here's a wild card: Puduhepa - Hattusili III's wife who was treated as his co-ruler and political equal (since Civ 5 has done something of the sort already, making Theodora the Byzantine ruler).

 

[DonStamos]

The problem I have with Firaxis when they choose civs, is that it seems they're not really aiming for inclusion of all human history. Instead they're appearently aiming to only include stuff we recognise. "Hey, look! Charlemagne! Attila the Hun! Gandhi!" No wonder people are asking for the Confederates, Nazi Germany and Soviet Union.

On topic, I think Kushan would be an interesting pick, with their Greco-Buddhism and all.

Well, speaking only for Charlemagne, the Franks have quite a bit of history going for them:

They helped solidify the power of the Catholic Church in their lands (and by extension, most of Europe)
They were the largest single political entity between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the rise of the nation-states of England and France (and lasted from the mid-400s through the mid-800s)
They preserved many classical texts that would later be used during the Renaissance, though not quite as many as the Muslims
They prevented the fall of Western Europe to the rapidly conquering Muslim armies at Tours (though this was Charles Martel)
The coronation of Charlemagne by the Pope as a "Roman emperor" (to tweak Byzantium) created a tradition where emperors were crowned by the Pope, as well as began to lay the groundwork for the later Holy Roman Empire (this did not exist during Charlemagne's lifetime, and in fact came into existence on the coronation of Otto I).

Charlemagne doesn't need to be the Frankish leader, but he's by far the most recognizable.

Pipen, Clovis and Charles Martel are other good choices.

 

[Louis XXIV]

You know, I think we actually have too many civs already.

I think we have to be selective with who to choose so as to not water down the definition of "Civilization," but I don't think that means we have too many already. For example, while I agree with the Huns and I think there's an argument you're right about the Shoshone, I think the Mississippians were undeniably a Civilization if they were to add them. I also think there are those that are on the bubble that could make it with other factors.

If we were gonna add more Civs, there are plenty of African political unities that actually did fit the model of empires based on large permanent settlements.

I think that's correct. It's part of the reason I don't think we have too many civs. You can't start by saying we have too many and then say we need to add more

If I were to add three Civs, it would be:
Vietnam
Kongo
Haida or Tlingit (as alternatives, Sumerians or Mississippians. Certainly, there's a good argument for Khmer and Pagan, I was just trying to pick regional diversity).

 

[Zipa_DH]

The Shoshone are a very odd choice, yes, and I sorta feel like they should've been replaced, at the very least by say, the Sioux or so since they have precedent in the Civ series, but preferably by a group who built up more.

They chose Shoshone because is one of the most "peaceful" of north american tribes, and Sioux weren't so relevant like the eastern Shoshone, known as the Comanche, and that's why they chose Pocatello instead of Washakie

But then, in terms of native Americans, those can be a little spare, and the big three of the Maya, Aztec, and Inca are already covered, and for North America, the Iroquois are easily the biggest one I can name, and they're in as well. The Mississippi have been put out as an idea, and while they'd definitely be hard to cover for lack of real knowledge about them, they are definitely a big prospect. Comparitively, while the Shoshone are cool to play as, as an actual inclusion it doesn't fit well.

certainly not, specially if you know the only native south american civ in game, only existed for only 100 years, andes is one of the six cradles of civilization with many cultures before Inca, also, we have another cultural areas like the caribbean, the southern cone and the amazonian. Same with mesoamerica

 

[Louis XXIV]

A
- That image is NOT a statue of Suppiluliuma I, the Hittite emperor... It's a statue of a ruler of a Neo-Hittite statelet also named Suppiluliuma.

You're correct, but, given the lack of detail on the statue, I don't think it makes much difference (especially since I can't find sculptures for the other one).

- I wouldn't use the Lion Gate as the Hittite unique building... There was only one Lion Gate, and it was a bit of an anomaly...

You may be right, although Bit-Hilani seems to be mentioned elsewhere (not quite the same thing as Lion Gate, although both involve lions, which is part of why I decided to simplify with English).

For an alternate Hittite UB I'd suggest the Seal House, a granary replacement that could do the same thing as the proposed Lion Gate (in addition to its usual granary duties, though maybe with a spin on those as well). Another option could be a Halentuwa House, a shrine replacement that could synch nicely with your proposed UA (maybe +1 Culture and/or Faith for every pantheon belief in a city?).

While the Hittites used seals, I couldn't find anything suggesting a building. The Halentuwa House would work except that makes them too religious when they do need a military advantage.

For leaders, I agree Suppiluliuma and Hattusili III would be the best choices, but here's a wild card: Puduhepa - Hattusili III's wife who was treated as his co-ruler and political equal (since Civ 5 has done something of the sort already, making Theodora the Byzantine ruler).

I considered that. She would not be a bad choice at all. Truly a partner in their marriage. Hittite Queens had official duties and she seemed to be even more prominent as a Queen than others.

meowschwitz, you have a similar idea to me with the Haida: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12515700&highlight=haida#post12515700

Leader: Koyah
Unique Unit: War Canoe: Replaces Trireme, combat bonus against cities, get a free worker when conquoring a city.
Unique Building: Totem Pole: Replaces Monument, +1 food in addition to the culture.
Unique Ability: Potlach: Receive culture whenever you give a gift to a City-State or agree to an aid request from a civ you have a declaration of friendship with.

I like your UU slightly better, but I'm biased into liking my other ideas better
I do think food for the Totem Pole makes sense to represent how abundant their lands were even though they didn't farm. Also, Potlach would be cool to represent since it's such an important part of their culture.

 

[Depravo]

I expect to have my buttocks tanned for this but: there are already enough native civs in the Americas given a conservative estimate of the pre-Columbian population and a realistic assessment of their significance in world historical terms. I would have preferred the Cherokee to the Shoshone but it's a fait accompli.

If more civs are added, and I agree that it may not be necessary or even a good idea, before anything more in the Americas South and East Asia need attention.

EDIT: Also Central Asia. Basically Asia.

 

[julystork]

Do people recognise a possible side effect of a canadian civ: JUSTIN BIEBER AS A GREAT MUSICIAN??

Also, would "Crusader States" be less controversial than a Israel/Jerusalem civ?

 

[Zipa_DH]

I think the War canoe should be a galleass replacement, or even a caravel replacement:

 

[seasnake]

I'd say at this point you'd do one more expansion with 7 new civs and few other mechanics (guilds and corporations, random events, etc.). I'd want to see the following:

Khazar
Kongo
Cherokee
Hittite
Mughal
Sumeria
Khmer

 

[Louis XXIV]

If they do an expansion, it'll be 9 Civs, not 7. They made that clear with the "why 9 for BNW" answer. They can't do more than 9 because it'll take too many resources for the art department and they don't want to do fewer than 9 because it'll suggest an inferior product to the previous expansions.

Thematically, I think the "story" is done. The opening videos have gone to present day. That alone suggests they won't do another expansion (unless they want to create a "Future Era" and space colonization a la Call to Power, which would probably alienate some people). DLC is the better option. They can also start the planning for Civ6 at the same time.

 

[Depravo]

and they don't want to do fewer than 9 because it'll suggest an inferior product to the previous expansions.

Seriously, is that an issue?

 

[Urdnot_Scott]

I think the War canoe should be a galleass replacement, or even a caravel replacement:

Why? It's pretty obviously closest to a trireme in terms of technological development, function and ability

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I really do hope they will flesh out the future era, though I don't expect they will.

 

[Zipa_DH]

Why? It's pretty obviously closest to a trireme in terms of technological development, function and ability

after the whites arrived, Haida improved their canoes with sails and masts, and personally, I rather middle and late game UU's

 

[otaman1]

Greenland

 

[Byzantine Bomb]

This Haida idea is interesting. You have my support good sir.

 

[Louis XXIV]

^ The unfortunate thing about the Haida, according to wikipedia, is that there are about 55 native speakers alive right now. As a backup, the Tlingit is possible, but I do hope it's the Haida.

Seriously, is that an issue?

Have you paid attention? People here complain about every little detail. They certainly would complain about that. They'll wonder why they're paying full price for 7 Civs instead of 9.

 

[Adam7Eight]

The Sumerians, of course.