Which Evil Leader is most Likely to become Good?

[megamanx06]

In almost all of my games that Sheelba's in, she converts to Order.

 

[thewyrm]

My heart says Keelyn, but I voted for Mahala.

In "my" version of the FfH story Keelyn is captured by the Elohim and Ethne is able to be a calming influence on her mind and maturity. Keelyn and the demons loyal to her are what turns the tide against Hyborem.

 

[Iceciro]

Flauros built the PILLAR. OF. CHAINS. He's evil. Just because he's less "destroy the world for power" and more "shut up, I'm hungry" Doesn't make him less evil.

Mahala for me.

 

[Morni]

I voted Hyborem. Because I can.

 

[Dumanios]

I voted Jonas because he he porbably could become good if Bhall went back to the light,or from talk of friends

 

[thomas.berubeg]

He's an Orc warlord. Does he have friends?

 

[zup]

Flauros does not need redemption. He's a great guy. Yes he kills people. So do the Bannor in the name of Junil. Even the Elohim wanted to start bashing in heads after what was done to Einion's wife. He's no different from the rest.

And furhtermore... Killing people is not evil. Pursuing one's self interest and pleasure is not evil. There is no such thing as evil. There is no good either. But don't bother debating that with me.

As such me voting would be rather pointless.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Of course, the Bannor don't often rape and devour souls in the name of Junil.

 

[KillerClowns]

Flauros does not need redemption. He's a great guy. Yes he kills people. So do the Bannor in the name of Junil. Even the Elohim wanted to start bashing in heads after what was done to Einion's wife. He's no different from the rest.

And furhtermore... Killing people is not evil. Pursuing one's self interest and pleasure is not evil. There is no such thing as evil. There is no good either. But don't bother debating that with me.

As such me voting would be rather pointless.

No offense, but your finger is getting awfully to my berserk button. For all my villain-like cackling, love of playing the bad guy, and dark sense of humor, I've got a (decidedly [wiki]Vimes[/wiki]-like) Lawful Good streak a mile wide. But I'll not argue the point... I can find I can be a bit too zealous for some people's comfort. Besides...

Of course, the Bannor don't often rape and devour souls in the name of Junil.

​

EDIT: *downs a metaphorical swig of tequila*
Found the quote from Discworld that summarizes my beliefs pretty well, might as well post it. Thank you, Wikiquote Or perhaps not; I may regret this...

"All right," said Susan, "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need ... fantasies to make life bearable."
NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers?"
YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
"So we can believe the big ones?"
YES. JUSTICE. DUTY. MERCY. THAT SORT OF THING.
"They're not the same at all!"
REALLY? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET YOU ACT, LIKE THERE WAS SOME SORT OF RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
"Yes. But people have got to believe that or what's the point?"
MY POINT EXACTLY.

(A discussion between DEATH and his granddaughter (long story), underlining mine."

 

[Tyrs]

I'm not the best at arguments, and you did ask not too, so I'll just settle for a "I agree with the above post"

 

[Nikis-Knight]

zup's response seems kind of like the old lawyer joke that went something like "Nothing happened, I didn't do it, and you can't prove I did it." (In otherwords, making contradictory claims at once in an attempt to dissuade all the opposing responses, even though the aggregate effect is to make his own position seem silly)

 

[Grey Fox]

zup almost always posts silly comments. At least all the times when he doesn't post serious ones.

 

[Duruk]

A few points;
1) In response to zup, I'm starting to fall in with the idea that good is defined by acting to help a bunch of people, neutral is acting to help yourself, your friends and your family, and evil is acting to help only yourself. So I wouldn't say that killing is always, but I would say that what Flauros does definitely is (yes, I'm ignoring your wish to not be debated with)

2)Have no idea why people think Perp would become good, or justify his actions as being less awful due to his insanity. I'll admit his awesome, though.

3)Want to hear reasoning from someone who actually believes that Hyborem is the most likely to be redeemed

4)I think its pretty interesting that this poll did a lot better than "which good leader is most likely to become evil," although I'll admit that Decius was more of a spoiler there than here.

 

[Tyrs]

In response to #4 I think the game itself gives us plenty of leaders falling, the forum are the only time we get to see leaders rising

 

[Cavalier]

Flauros does not need redemption. He's a great guy. Yes he kills people. So do the Bannor in the name of Junil. Even the Elohim wanted to start bashing in heads after what was done to Einion's wife. He's no different from the rest.

And furhtermore... Killing people is not evil. Pursuing one's self interest and pleasure is not evil. There is no such thing as evil. There is no good either. But don't bother debating that with me.

As such me voting would be rather pointless.

As is your comment. Everything is relative. And? The fun here comes from establishing generally agreed upon set of definitions (eg, "Eating souls is bad") and exploring the ambiguities therein.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

In response to #4 I think the game itself gives us plenty of leaders falling, the forum are the only time we get to see leaders rising

There's Kylorin, who went from neutral to evil to good, but that's in the prelude.

 

[Tyrs]

Very true, and Kylorin is one of the most interesting characters/stories in the game. I might just be talking about myself here, but in general I feel like redemption simply makes for a more satisfying story/ending. I love dark fantasy, but without some kind of upswing it just feels like...life. With magic. FfH does a great job of the necessary balance of having a dark enough world to be interesting, without making anyone who plays it suicidal (not including OO)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I personally think it is more interesting if taking the path of evil eventually turns out to have been for the greater good. If I had written the Decius saga he probably would have fallen eventually if you took the Malakim route, and repented eventually if you joined the Calabim. He would have to loose everything he had gained from his wickedness and probably loose his life as well, but the power he accumulated would enable him to succeed in saving Erebus where he would have otherwise failed.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Although I think Decius is "the most likely," I don't mean that I see it as a strong possibility. It's like the saying "The chances of that are slim and none - and slim's leaving town."

FFH2 seems more inclined to having "Good" leaders go bad than the reverse.

Personally I'd love Faeryl Viconia to proclaim her hatred of clothes and rejoin her Ljosalfarian brethren.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

FFH2 seems more inclined to having "Good" leaders go bad than the reverse.

Well, I think "Good" and "Bad" are, were and will ever be relative terms. Most people seem to believe in the existance of a "Universal Good" and "Universal Bad" which, according to my observations, is not the real case.

So, Good in relation to what? Evil, in relation to what? Is not true that "there is no Good without Evil" and vice versa? Perhaps, through actions considered Evil by a specific society standards, a Leader can, in the end, save the world from destruction( and this, by itself could be considered as a Good or Evil action. Did he really "saved" the world or just prolonged its suffering? Again, no real answer to it).
On the other hand, a Leader, performing naturally "good" actions(like, allying with the infernals to save the lives of thousands of people), can, effectivelly, aid or even cause, the destruction of the whole world(Again, would that be an "evil" action? Or just a ending to the suffering? Or, perhaps, the souls lost that way could finaly find a salvation not available for as long as the world has existed? Who can really say what is "good" or "bad"?).

This is really a feeling that FFH is trying, and succeeds in keeping it, and it is obvious in Tolkien's Silmarilion/LotR(Remember Faramir over the body of the dead eastern fellow? Or Gandalf speaking about Gollum with Frodo in Morea? -just two examples of the countless) as well as in every significant fantasy story I have ever read.