Which Leader in Civ 6 is the most interesting? (Historically, and in your opinion)

[Boris Gudenuf]

Yeah, I think that's true. There's an emphasis on the things that break the seeming mold - SO MUCH of history is about kings that when you get the story of a female revolutionary - or a region where female revolutionaries are more than just one example - it becomes something notable. It's a spotlight to say "here is what's possible," rather than saying "here is how it normally was."

I've been recently reading David Graeber's fantastic The Dawn of Everything, and I can see a bit of similarities here. Graeber really pushes for an idea of Neolithic republics or democratic systems in ways that are both compelling, but also need to be taken in the same way - this isn't how every Neolithic society was, just how one possibility was realized in more than one place (Tlaxcala, Teotihuacan, Sumerian, ancient Ukraine). He makes for an interesting tension between upland foraging societies focused on kingship and honor and larger urban cultures focused on an egalitarian civic life in ways that totally upend the everyday explanation for things. It's effective, especially in showing how the "rise of agriculture leads to an authoritarian state" narrative simply has no basis, but it is weak in that it could be interpreted as making too much of disparate examples. Perhaps the correct thing to say re: Graeber is "an egalitarian, urban Neolithic is possible," rather than "the urban Neolithic was egalitarian". . .

Will have to add Graeber to my reading list - unfortunately, it will have to be after I finish translating a few more of Khazanov's chapters on the air war in front of Moscow in October 1941 (from Russian) and the VIII FliegerKorp's journal on the same period (from German) - that 'Free Time' that's supposed to come with retirement is a *&$%^ Myth!

It does sound like he's touching on something I started noticing a few years ago, though: there are a lot of early 'urban agricultural' societies that show little or no sign of hierarchial leadership at all: Catal Huyuk and the Cucuteni -Trypillia cities (in both cases, all homes in the city are virtually identical in size and there is no central plaza, mound, or Ceremonial Place from which to proclaim anything), for example, and others in the more traditional hierarchial pattern in which the basis for Leadership appears to have been religious and not political/bureaucratic - case in point, Uruk, which was founded around a pair of religious sites. Add to that what we already discussed elsewhere on these Forums that many "Indo-European" societies from Greece to Rome to the German tribes and pastoral groups had strong traditions in the historical period of Consensual King - or Chieftainship and many Native North American societies had 'ephemeral' chiefs - you were put in charge temporarily because you were good at doing something specific like diplomacy or leading raids, but there was no tradition or even concept of an individual having overall general authority over the group.

And, of course, there are a lot of examples of 'Separate Authority/Influence' patterns between men and women: the Haudenosaunee in which the woman 'owned' the Longhouse and a womens' council made almost all decisions regarding internal affairs in parallel wth the men's "Senate" so loved by Franklin that only had authority over external matters, or the rigid separation of mens' and womens' religious rites and 'mysteries' in Classical Greece. Not to mention the very strange (to traditional patriarchial patterns) examples of Goddesses with Military Influence, like Athena (who is probably pre-Greek, since 'Athens' the city predates the arrival of Greeks in Greece) or Artemis/Diana the Huntress usurping a traditionally-male role . . .

Another peculiarity is that the supposedly Classic Arch-Imperialist, Kipling, summed it up most neatly and succinctly:

"There are nine and twenty ways
of constructing Tribal Lays
And each and every one of them is Right!"

 

[Zaarin]

Not to mention the very strange (to traditional patriarchial patterns) examples of Goddesses with Military Influence, like Athena (who is probably pre-Greek, since 'Athens' the city predates the arrival of Greeks in Greece) or Artemis/Diana the Huntress usurping a traditionally-male role . . .

It could be Near Eastern influence. See the litany of Near Eastern war goddesses: Ashtart/Ashera, Tannit, Ishtar/Inanna, Sekhmet, Šauška, etc. On the other hand, Indo-Europeans are no stranger to war goddesses themselves: Kali, Freyja (sometimes), The Morrigan, the Gaulish Mother Goddesses, the British Andraste...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

It could be Near Eastern influence. See the litany of Near Eastern war goddesses: Ashtart/Ashera, Tannit, Ishtar/Inanna, Sekhmet, Šauška, etc. On the other hand, Indo-Europeans are no stranger to war goddesses themselves: Kali, Freyja (sometimes), The Morrigan, the Gaulish Mother Goddesses, the British Andraste...

While I have no doubt that there is Near Eastern influence (because, among other things, most religions seem to have no problem at all stealing anything that looks Good from another religion) I suspect that it goes back further than urbanization or agriculture: as you mention, there is an "Indo-European" tradition of Warrior Goddess (and Women, if you count numerous legendary and not-so-legendary ladies like the Celtic Sword Mistresses or the Roxolani) some manifestations of which appear rather far removed in time and space from the urban/agricultural Near East.

 

[General_Sahib]

I find most civ6 leaders interesting.....except for the ones whom I believe have nothing to say..

 

[Sykes179]

Hammurabi without doubt. It's crazy. But I'm almost totally fixated by eurekas and inspirations anyway. I almost always research that that has been boosted before anything else. I feel it leverages my poor science and culture.

 

[TyrannusRex]

Two leaders that caught my attention pretty quickly were Poundmaker and John Curtin. I had never heard of either of them before Civ VI and learning about who they were was a very satisfying experience. I could probably say the same about Menelik, since I knew squat about Ethiopia beforehand. Matthias Corvinus was also a pretty interesting dude. Of course, I also enjoyed deepening my knowledge about well-known figures like Genghis Khan, Trajan, Teddy Roosevelt, and Shaka Zulu. Made me appreciate their places in history a bit more.

 

[Guynemer]

It could be Near Eastern influence. See the litany of Near Eastern war goddesses: Ashtart/Ashera, Tannit, Ishtar/Inanna, Sekhmet, Šauška, etc. On the other hand, Indo-Europeans are no stranger to war goddesses themselves: Kali, Freyja (sometimes), The Morrigan, the Gaulish Mother Goddesses, the British Andraste...

holy crap Andraste was an actual goddess? I thought it was just a cool name made up for Dragon Age. That's wild.

 

[Zaarin]

holy crap Andraste was an actual goddess? I thought it was just a cool name made up for Dragon Age. That's wild.

She's not very well attested, but, according to Dio Cassius, she's the goddess Boudicca invoked for divination before her uprising against Rome. By the interpretatio Romana, she was the British Victoria. There's another goddess from Gaul called Andarta who may or may not be related.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

She's not very well attested, but, according to Dio Cassius, she's the goddess Boudicca invoked for divination before her uprising against Rome. By the interpretatio Romana, she was the British Victoria. There's another goddess from Gaul called Andarta who may or may not be related.

On the one hand, Gods and Goddesses get 'borrowed' by various neighboring groups, on the other hand some of them go back to before the neighboring groups were separate from the original.
Also remember that most of what we think we know about Briton, Celtic, Germanic pantheons is filtered through the Greeks and Romans that actually wrote it down, and they may have gotten all or most of it wrong - or been fed a load of drivel by some wiseguy Celt or German or Briton who was simply out to mess with the visiting urban Tourist . . .

 

[Zaarin]

On the one hand, Gods and Goddesses get 'borrowed' by various neighboring groups, on the other hand some of them go back to before the neighboring groups were separate from the original.
Also remember that most of what we think we know about Briton, Celtic, Germanic pantheons is filtered through the Greeks and Romans that actually wrote it down, and they may have gotten all or most of it wrong - or been fed a load of drivel by some wiseguy Celt or German or Briton who was simply out to mess with the visiting urban Tourist . . .

Indeed. And sometimes we have disparate sources that we have to reconcile. E.g., Julius Caesar said that the most important Celtic god was "Mercury"; he probably meant Lugus--but we don't know that for certain. Even sources written by natives are sometimes subject to Hellenization/Romanization. E.g., there's a lot of invaluable information in Sanchuniathon, but a lot of it is also heavily influenced by or filtered through Greek mythology.

 

[SecretWeapon]

I think Eleanor is my favorite leader. She looks very cool with the flower crown. And i like her story, she was a boss

 

[McKeu]

John Curtin turned out to be most interesting for me ingame, although I have no relation whatsoever with Australia.
In RL one could see him as "controversial", though, at best.

 

[Ordnael]

I avoid playing as the Sumerian just so I can interact with Gilgamesh. That's how much I've fallen in love with him! Also his attacked line and animation is hilarious!

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

I would have to be the nth person to say Aliénor. Might be related to growing up with The Lion in Winter as a Christmas film... It has kind of surprised me that strategy games have kept her legacy alive.

I knew very little about Matthias Corvinus before Civ6 despite having once lived on a street named after him. Whether his role in the (Ottoman) forever war, his state administration, or the brutality of his upbringing, he proved very interesting reading material.

 

[Zaarin]

I avoid playing as the Sumerian just so I can interact with Gilgamesh. That's how much I've fallen in love with him! Also his attacked line and animation is hilarious!

His enthusiastic delivery really makes one forgiving of his bad pronunciation.

 

[Chekko]

Phillip II got the best animations imo. While speaking the lovely language of Spanish.

Neustros estados... por qué señor... por qué.. nos has abandonado...

 

[Zaarin]

Phillip II got the best animations imo. While speaking the lovely language of Spanish.

Too bad he bears no resemblance, either in personality or appearance, to the actual Philip II, a man known for his religious zeal and his melancholy, introspective mood. Should have just called the Spanish leader Antonio Banderas since that's clearly what they wanted.

 

[Chekko]

You guys know almost everything about history here it's interesting. I know the name Bluetooth comes from a Danish King, and my brother keeps yapping about how St Petersburg was intended to be this new fancy capital for Sweden or something but then the Russians took over.

 

[Ordnael]

Phillip II got the best animations imo. While speaking the lovely language of Spanish.

Neustros estados... por qué señor... por qué.. nos has abandonado...

I kinda like him...but part of me wants to pick João III and beat the living lights out of him.
"Nos somos Felipe, el rey de España y Portugal, empero por encima de todo, somos fieles devotos de la única y verdadera religión."
rey de Portugal...my ass (sorry been watching too much AVGN)

Also can't please Firaxis fix João 3 position on his screen, he swing to the centre of the screen on the Switch port when he's happy with you and he gets partially hidden by the diplomacy options.

 

[Zaarin]

rey de Portugal...my ass (sorry been watching too much AVGN)

It's typical for monarchs to claim more land than they actually control (English kings were calling themselves "king of France" into the dawn of the nineteenth century), but Philip II was king of Portugal in fact as part of the Iberian Union. One notes he judiciously declines to mention his (highly contested) position as Lord of the Seventeen Provinces, though.