Which Leader in Civ 6 is the most interesting? (Historically, and in your opinion)

[Boris Gudenuf]

. . . It might explain why his laugh makes me want to straight up murder him.

" - may smile and be a Villain . . ."

Like many other people, I confess the most interesting of Civ VI's rulers to me were the ones I knew least about: Lautauro because I've never really studied pre-Columbian South America, and Poundmaker because the Cree, to me, were Them Guys that fought the Nadouessioux and corralled Bison . . .

Since my undergraduate work was mostly European History and my graduate work was Classical Mediterranean - Middle East there were not many revelations to be had in the Civs from there (except for numerous What Were They Thinking?! moments) and in recent years I've gotten increasingly interested in Central - East Asian history so that was at least reasonably Familiar Ground as well.
Kupe surprised me the most of all Civ VI's leaders, but mainly because I couldn't imagine anyone would consider making him a Leader in a purportedly Historical 4X game when just among the Maori you have the likes of Wiremu Kingi, Maui Pomari, Apirana Ngata, Te Wherowhero available . . .

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

(though if Musa’s tale is true it opens up the slim possibility that Mali discovered America, but I digress)

As far as pre-Columbian contacts with North America you'd need to find a few pieces of evidence. There's a lot of records of people sailing into the Atlantic and never coming back from a number of different places. You'd need records of people who came back at some point, and then you'd need some archaeological sites in the Americas to corroborate the link.

Of that, all we've got is the Norse fishing site in Newfoundland that's accepted as contact. And it's not very impressive - some minor structures sufficient for a seasonal or short-term permanent camp. From that, too, we have sagas from those who came back from Vinland. And it's pretty plausible - Greenland is just a jump away from Canada.

Malian discoveries in the New World stem from that account that you mention here, and then some really speculative/spurious theories. I'd put Menzies in here (who argues for a Ming-era discovery of the New World) in here too, but we've had that conversation before. I guess I just need overwhelming evidence to make what would be a pretty significant claim. Similar spurious theories involve the Celts, the Egyptians, etc.

I also feel this way about aliens - I'm going to need a lot of very concrete evidence before I start taking this seriously.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

A bit off topic since he is not in civ6, but Enrico Dandolo lol. Leading an army in person when you're almost 90 years old and blind as a bat is apparently very cool to me. I always imagine a Hollywood film about the fourth crusade where Ian McKellen plays Dandolo

I hate that man for putting Eastern Rome into coma. damn you for 4th crusade!

 

[Zaarin]

I guess I just need overwhelming evidence to make what would be a pretty significant claim.

Same. I think the most plausible pre-Columbus contact theory is China, who certainly had the capability, but the evidence is too lacking to make a real claim. There are certainly pre-Columbian Chinese artifacts in the PNW, but most archaeologists agree they drifted to the New World from shipwrecks (as did bamboo, which the Tlingit called "ironwood" and used as hair ornaments for women). Several PNW tribes used Chinese coins that drifted ashore as beads, and the Tlingit used iron nails from Chinese and Japanese shipwrecks as adzes. None of these things do anything to prove Chinese contact, though.

Similar spurious theories involve the Celts, the Egyptians, etc.

I've heard the theories about the Phoenicians and Egyptians, but which Celts are we talking about here? I've heard theories about the Irish (which is a little less of a fringe theory than most; they did beat the Norse to Iceland, after all, which is technically N o r t h A m e r i c a, but there's no reason to believe they went any further west than that), but if we're talking about the Gauls or Celtiberians or Britons...that would just be bizarre given that none of them was particularly known for their seafaring prowess.

I also feel this way about aliens - I'm going to need a lot of very concrete evidence before I start taking this seriously.

I believe intelligent alien life exists; the universe is simply too vast to believe we're alone in it. I also believe we'll never know because interstellar space just isn't traversable in the manner we conceptualize in sci-fi unless virtually everything we know about physics is wrong (a possibility, to be sure, but a remote one). I certainly don't believe in alien abductions or UFOs in the pop culture sense.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Re: Tlingit - sure, they made use of Chinese trade goods! In the 18th and 19th centuries, when Chinese trade goods were a major part of trade networks in that region. But, yes, "could have reached North America" isn't "reached".

Oh, and I meant the Irish here, re: St. Brennan. And, yes, I've heard the Phoenician story as well. I just don't think any of these are backed up by appropriate evidence. As our archaeological analyses get more and more sophisticated (e.g. phytolith analyses), you would think that some evidence would come to light. It just hasn't. Old arguments about, for instance, Olmec heads "looking African", have never been taken really seriously.

I think a lot of these theories come from communities of settlers (or, in the case of the Olmec heads, Black nationalists) in the USA seeking for some kind of claim to indigeneity or legitimacy. This is why hoaxes regularly appear in places with strong communities - e.g. "Viking runestones" in Minnesota (where there are a lot of Scandinavian-Americans).

To answer the original question here, I did indeed learn some new names and figures via Civ. I don't think I knew Lautaro before Civ (I'm not a specialist of indigenous South America). Ambiorix was fun to write. But favorite-favorite leader as a historical personality? Hmmm... I like Saladin as a personality. Gitarja, Jayavarman, Chandragupta, and Trieu are close to my academic interests.

 

[Zaarin]

Re: Tlingit - sure, they made use of Chinese trade goods! In the 18th and 19th centuries, when Chinese trade goods were a major part of trade networks in that region. But, yes, "could have reached North America" isn't "reached".

Even earlier, in fact. A 500 year old village was excavated with bamboo, Chinese iron nails, and I think but am not 100% sure Chinese coins. But these are generally believed to have washed ashore from shipwrecks so, again, don't prove contact.

Oh, and I meant the Irish here, re: St. Brennan. And, yes, I've heard the Phoenician story as well. I just don't think any of these are backed up by appropriate evidence. As our archaeological analyses get more and more sophisticated (e.g. phytolith analyses), you would think that some evidence would come to light. It just hasn't. Old arguments about, for instance, Olmec heads "looking African", have never been taken really seriously.

Agreed. Plus a lot of the theories that the Olmecs or Maya were from across the sea are rooted in plain and simple racism, e.g., "Native Americans couldn't possibly have built something so impressive." (Or Black nationalism, in the case of the "African Olmec" fringe theory, as you mentioned.) As for the Phoenicians, could they have done it? Despite their exceptional seamanship, I'm inclined to say no. Phoenician ships roamed surprisingly far--to the Canaries, the British Isles, maybe as far as Scandinavia, and around the west coast of Africa as far as Ghana for sure and maybe as far as the Cape of Good Hope (that's debated)--but all of these places except the Canaries are reachable by hugging the coast. Ships of that era just weren't designed for a transatlantic voyage.

 

[sukritact]

I'm going to need a lot of very concrete evidence before I start taking this seriously.

I mean yeah, I’m never gonna take the possibility seriously, there’s literally no proof that they got anywhere. They still only had dugout canoes when the Portuguese arrived a century later, and I’m not certain if sails were even commonly in use.

Heck, as I suggest, the entire story of the fleet is probably just an invention by Musa to cover up him usurping the throne. But it’s an amusing and captivating anecdote to repeat. And as long as there’s no proof against you can say there’s a slim possibility (much in the same way Russell’s teapot could be a thing, but this is much more fun to wildly speculate about).

 

[Zaarin]

To answer the question from a different angle, which leader is most interesting to me, without reference to my prior familiarity with the leader, I'd have to say Tamar of Civ6's leaders. She was an absolute lion of a leader. Of any leader that's been in Civ, though, I'd have to say Elizabeth I. She's just one of the most absolutely charismatic figures in history, and it's hard to study her without falling under her spell. That was a woman who knew the value of a good PR campaign. (She was also a talented poet. "On Monsieur's Departure" is one of my favorite poems: "My care is like my shadow in the sun,/Follows me flying, flies when I pursue it,/Stands and lies by me, doth what I have done./His too familiar care doth make me rue it.")

 

[Uberfrog]

Civ 6 (like its predecessors) has done a great job introducing me to historical figures I had no idea about before playing.

For me, the most interesting leaders are some of those that were more controversial with certain fans:

• Mvemba a Nzinga could easily be dismissed as a foolish leader who opened up his country to foreign colonisation, but the reality is much more interesting. Leveraging diplomatic ties with the Portuguese, and moreover, Rome, was a way of securing legitimacy in a situation where his rule was quite insecure following a royal succession crisis in Kongo.
• Catherine de Medici is an extremely interesting figure, and perhaps the epitome of a renaissance queen.
• Kristina, the rebellious bookish Catholic counterpoint to her conquering father.

 

[Kaan Boztepe]

Not a leader for me but from the great persons Admiral Yi . if he had been english or american hoolywood had made everyone on the planet worshipping him. there is some videos from extra history over in youtube for those who are interested.

 

[Zaarin]

Not a leader for me but from the great persons Admiral Yi . if he had been english or american hoolywood had made everyone on the planet worshipping him. there is some videos from extra history over in youtube for those who are interested.

Hallyu notwithstanding, there's just so much that's awesome in Korean history that's completely obscure in the West. Traditional history tends to focus more on China (and even then it's the big, big, big picture), and Japan has managed to dominate pop culture. Korea kind of gets forgotten.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Just to throw my own list:

Lautaro
Poundmaker
Gitarja
Joao III

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Lautaro
Poundmaker

Joao III

"One of these things is not like the other..."

 

[Zaarin]

"One of these things is not like the other..."

At least it's not João III and Mvemba a Nzinga.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I love the idea where a rather obscure or lesser known leaders leading a returning civ. In Civ6, most of the time, that's a female leader. There is only 1 female leader returning from civ5 (Dido), and 2 additional female leaders who was previously featured in the franchise (Vicky, Cleo). I like things that are fresh, so when I see Gandhi returning, or the unholy combo of Zulu, Shaka, Impi, Ikanda, I can't express how depressingly uninspired I feel. I like Dido since Civ5, despite Carthage being a hot garbage civ, and Phoenicia is my favorite addition in GS.

I guess my favorite one in Civ6 is probably Gitarja. I do like Seondeok and Kristina, although I know people with Korean or Swedish background don't like them. For those 2 civs, since I don't have a lot of knowledge capital (I only know Sejong and Gustavus, since they are featured in Civ5) and I know they are better choices, but as I said, I want to learn about new people.

With that being said, Trieu is a bad leader choice that I learn to get used to, because unfortunately I do have background and knowledge there to know better lol. You can have 20 potential Vietnamese leaders put in a hat, ranging from Trung Trac in the 1st century to Ho Chi Minh in the 20th century, pick out a random one, slap the ability to fight better in woods, rainforests and marshes on him/her, and it still makes sense. Trieu's ability is so generically Vietnamese because there isn't any surviving records of the tactics/strategies she actually used. But hey, unlike Kristina, one thing that may make Trieu a not-that-bad choice is that at least she is well remembered and worshipped by her people.

 

[Zaarin]

With that being said, Trieu is a bad leader choice that I learn to get used to, because unfortunately I do have background and knowledge there to know better lol. You can have 20 potential Vietnamese leaders put in a hat, ranging from Trung Trac in the 1st century to Ho Chi Minh in the 20th century, pick out a random one, slap the ability to fight better in woods, rainforests and marshes on him/her, and it still makes sense. Trieu's ability is so generically Vietnamese because there isn't any surviving records of the tactics/strategies she actually used. But hey, unlike Kristina, one thing that may make Trieu a not-that-bad choice is that at least she is well remembered and worshipped by her people.

Yeah, it's super weird that they chose Trieu over Trung Trac, especially since the ability could work pretty much the same. Given how anachronistic Trieu's portrayal is, might as well just use the same model, too. I'm guessing they chose Trieu for the quote (that happens to be on her Wikipedia page ), but that seems a poor reason to choose a leader. (I am not an expert on Vietnamese history by any means, but I was hoping for Le Loi as he seems really interesting. Maybe next time Vietnam shows up.)

 

[Leucarum]

I kind of hope 7 starts with a larger slate of civs than 6 did. I suspect a lot of abilities from 6 will become somewhat emblematic for future iterations. I doubt they would make a Gran Colombia which didn't move fast, or a Canada that was immune to wars for example... So maybe there would be a little less work for a lot of civs.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Canada that was immune to wars for example...

This would also mean Canada returns to the roster, which I'm sure some of us fanatics would be... less than happy about

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

or a Canada that was immune to wars for example...

As a Canadian, I'd rather that ability be given to the Swiss if they appear in Civ 7.

 

[Zaarin]

I kind of hope 7 starts with a larger slate of civs than 6 did.

I wouldn't count on it. The more unique the civs are, the fewer will be included (by NFP, you can tell they were really scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of civ ideas), and I don't see Civ going back to the Civ4-style "vague generic bonus." There's also the issue of the more civs included, the higher the art budget goes. A few people here have suggested simplifying the leader portraits, but let's be honest: that's not going to sell to the mass market. Frankly, it wouldn't even sell to me unless other gameplay factors just absolutely blew my mind. (My suggestion of traditionally animated portraits probably wouldn't be any cheaper; you're hiring someone to hand-draw, physically or digitally, hundreds if not thousands of frames.) Once expectations are set, it's difficult to walk back on them.

This would also mean Canada returns to the roster, which I'm sure some of us fanatics would be... less than happy about

Canada in the base game would be absurd to me, but honestly I'd take Canada over Australia--or any other Anglophone ex-colony due to the Francophone influence. That doesn't mean I'm giddy about the possibility of Canada returning, but a Champlain-led Canada that looked a lot more like Civ6's Cree would be a decent civ IMO. (It still amazes me that with 50 civs in the game, we only got a single Native North American civ, already a downgrade from Civ5, and that single Native American civ is located in Canada and could easily have been taken as a stand in for Canada.)