While We Wait: Part 2

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I would have to disagree with the last part. I'm trying to imagine the Cold War compressed into 2 turns, or the whole of the 20th Century into 5, and that just leaves a very, very bad taste in my mouth.

Of course. You've lived through it. Try compressing a whole Punic War in a turn. Or the Warring States in only a few. Who would be insane enough to have the Jewish Rebellion in a single turn?

It's an unhappy compromise. Things have to change quickly; otherwise the NES will never get anywhere.
 
One problem that I have with things like 100-year turns in the ancient era is wars. In JalNES, to use an example, the war between Sumer and the Hittites lasted for nearly half a millennium. That simply doesn't make sense. At the same time, however, there is the urge to move forward in time.

The best solution, IMHO, is to have a fixed update length (5 or 10 or 20 or 50 or 100 years), and then to divide wars into smaller updates. The most recent DisNES attempted to do something like this, but on a month/year scale, I believe).

There are problems with this, though: it creates a lot of work for the mod, and it slows down turns considerably, making everyone not involved in a war lose interest. The only solution I can see would be to have semi-live resolution, where the mod and the players involved in war can get on #NES or AIM or something like that and give quick tactical orders. That has tricky logistics, however.

So, on the one hand, wars should have 1-year or even monthly updates, even in the ancient era, to be resolved. But on the other hand, 1 year updates simply won't get you from 2000 BC to 2000 AD.
 
Of course. You've lived through it. Try compressing a whole Punic War in a turn. Or the Warring States in only a few. Who would be insane enough to have the Jewish Rebellion in a single turn?

It's an unhappy compromise. Things have to change quickly; otherwise the NES will never get anywhere.
jalapeno_dude said:
The best solution, IMHO, is to have a fixed update length (5 or 10 or 20 or 50 or 100 years), and then to divide wars into smaller updates. The most recent DisNES attempted to do something like this, but on a month/year scale, I believe).
I for one see no reason not to use a system similar to Civilization and simply reduce the time a turn encompasses over time based on certain factors (technology, connectedness, so on). One-size-fits-all tends to fit nothing at all. The only things that truly happen terribly fast in the earlier ages are wars. In later times it's everything.
 
BT should be filled, not skipped over
 
Not true. Things happened quite fast in the ancient era; it's the perspective bias and the fact that we're used to the Civilization idea which prompts us to believe otherwise. In fact, important things were usually MORE important in the ancient era than in the modern, because they laid the foundations for the moder era. Furthermore, the modern era doesn't really change as much as we would like to believe. Tell me who the major powers were in 1900, and who the major powers are now. The list is essentially the same, excepting the fall of Austria and the Ottomans, and the rise of China and India, which is easily handled in 5 updates. On the other hand, trying to cover the entirety of the Persian Empire in ONE update is ridiculous.

Humans are humans. One size fits all works better here simply because we are roughly the same people that our ancestors were. We think differently, but we aren't inherently smarter than them, except perhaps very minutely.
 
Not true. Things happened quite fast in the ancient era; it's the perspective bias and the fact that we're used to the Civilization idea which prompts us to believe otherwise. In fact, important things were usually MORE important in the ancient era than in the modern, because they laid the foundations for the moder era. Furthermore, the modern era doesn't really change as much as we would like to believe. Tell me who the major powers were in 1900, and who the major powers are now. The list is essentially the same, excepting the fall of Austria and the Ottomans, and the rise of China and India, which is easily handled in 5 updates. On the other hand, trying to cover the entirety of the Persian Empire in ONE update is ridiculous.

Humans are humans. One size fits all works better here simply because we are roughly the same people that our ancestors were. We think differently, but we aren't inherently smarter than them, except perhaps very minutely.
We have toys bigger and cooler than they could possibly imagine, capable of building or destroying more than they could possibly imagine, faster than they could possibly imagine, that change faster than they could possibly imagine.

Mankind has advanced more in the past 100 years than in the past 100,000 prior to that put together. That sort of exponential change argues extremely strongly against one-size. I would argue that the exact opposite problem is at work here: you are not appreciating the degree to which things are different now as opposed to then. From the Industrial Revolution forward the world pretty operates on completely different rules. Before then you can pretend it advanced linearly and not deviate from the curve too much in error. After that, it's nothing but folly to presume it continues on in such a way. It changes. Exponentially. One-size-fits-all lines don't do so hot on fitting exponential curves.

People might be more or less the same, but that hardly matters when the tools at their disposal are such orders of magnitude more powerful, and their are powers more of them to use them. You can't just ignore advances and write them off because people act more or less the same in their base desires in computing a useful time-scale.
 
Since it appears we cannot realistically speed up the number of turns that leaves us with trying to speed time (longer turns).

Going from 5 year turns to 20 or 50 to 100 fails as has been noted above. In BirdNES I broke each five year turn into single years and used specific years when applicable in the update. Players assigned years to their actions and I matched them up as needed. Wars petered out after a year or two, nations came late to wars that were ongoing etc. If this were applied to a longer periods, say 20 year turns, it might work.

Player would write plans for a 20 year period, but attach specific years to each event.

Isreal's orders:
20-25 AD build schools and 5 fleets
30 AD build forts along the coast
32 AD invade Egypt with 10,000 men
37 AD King Ahab dies and his son Bob marries Sue of Sudan and takes the kingship

Egypts orders might read:
20-23 AD Train 5,000 troops and improve army leadership
29 AD invade Egypt from the sea
35 AD rebuild army to 10,000 men

The mod would match up events to resolve things appropriately. In this case Egypt gets invaded before the forts get built. The war can end in 30 AD.

With such a system events take place in the apporopriate time frame but the games moves along a faster rate. Larger cycles of advancement and decay could be built in so the ebb and flow chages. Of course this makes things more complicated and that may not appeal to all.

A hundred year turn could be broken into 10 year event tags.
 
Egypts orders might read:
20-23 AD Train 5,000 troops and improve army leadership
29 AD invade Egypt from the sea

Wow....Egpyt has some issues.
 
Going from 5 year turns to 20 or 50 to 100 fails as has been noted above.
I at least have as yet to see convincing proof of anything to this effect. It'd be the reverse, by the way, and not necessarily that dramatic.

Run 50 from Prehistory to Bronze, 20 from Bronze to Medieval, 10 from Medieval to Renaissance, 5 from Renaissance to Industrial, 1 from there forward.

5 to 6 turns for the Hundred Years War and the same for the Thirty Years' War seems perfectly adequate and accurate. It's not totally accurate on the earlier end but it could be shortened there or slowed down for intensive wars as necessary. There is absolutely nothing about such a system that is unworkable or impossible to operate.
 
I at least have as yet to see convincing proof of anything to this effect. It'd be the reverse, by the way, and not necessarily that dramatic.

Run 50 from Prehistory to Bronze, 20 from Bronze to Medieval, 10 from Medieval to Renaissance, 5 from Renaissance to Industrial, 1 from there forward.

5 to 6 turns for the Hundred Years War and the same for the Thirty Years' War seems perfectly adequate and accurate. It's not totally accurate on the earlier end but it could be shortened there or slowed down for intensive wars as necessary. There is absolutely nothing about such a system that is unworkable.
The problem is that using 5 years turns from 1500 forward to 1800 doesn't work from an actual game play stand point. I'm using 5 year turns in BirdNES (we began in 1500 AD) and it has taken 4 months to progress 50 years. I think that is unsatisfactory from a player standpoint. 300 years in 5 year hunks is 60 updates.

In the ancient era there are 70 fifty-year updates from 1200 BCE (bronze age Troy) to the Roman Empire (0 AD). To make real game progress you need to either speed up the number of updates or speed up turn length in years.

Now a game based on Napoleon that ran from 1794 to 1815 could be run on yearly turns and actually reach a conclusion.

Your telescoping years works fine on paper, but not in actual play.
 
Just make each update N-Blocks of the Era's Temporal Resolution. Set a minimum (the Resolution) and based on how things are going multiply that times N to form a Temporal Block. Lots of stuff, small blocks. Little stuff, big blocks. You're in the Napoleonic Wars? Use the minimum Resolution of 5 year blocks (or, hell, whatever you want). They're over? Multiply it times 2, 3, 4, or whatever suits your fancy and block it out until things get complicated again.

Completely subjective? Sure, but I seem to be the only who hates subjectivity, so the rest of you should get along just fine with such a system. It's a better solution in this instance to have to interfere than to settle on a terrible compromise that satisfies no one and makes everyone equally unhappy anyway.
 
Just make each update N-Blocks of the Era's Temporal Resolution. Set a minimum (the Resolution) and based on how things are going multiply that times N to form a Temporal Block. Lots of stuff, small blocks. Little stuff, big blocks. You're in the Napoleonic Wars? Use the minimum Resolution of 5 year blocks (or, hell, whatever you want). They're over? Multiply it times 2, 3, 4, or whatever suits your fancy and block it out until things get complicated again.

Completely subjective? Sure, but I seem to be the only who hates subjectivity, so the rest of you should get along just fine with such a system. It's a better solution in this instance to have to interfere than to settle on a terrible compromise that satisfies no one and makes everyone equally unhappy anyway.

Ok how, in your mind, would this actually translate into orders and updates for the period from 1500 to 1600? As the NES begins what instructions would you give to players for their orders?
 
You should steal das' award list :p Borrow excessively, though don't mind adding a few of your own :D Like "Most Ridiculous Character: King Ryan" and etc etc ;)

YES! I Win another Ridicoulus Award!
 
YES! I Win another Ridicoulus Award!
Welcome to the NESing neighborhood Warhead. :)

You won't win any awards unless you play. ;)
 
Ok how, in your mind, would this actually translate into orders and updates for the period from 1500 to 1600? As the NES begins what instructions would you give to players for their orders?

1. Inquiry: "Briefly describe your plans for the next 1, 5, 10, 20, and 30 years, in that order and describing their overall importance." [PROMPT]
2. Collate Responses. [COLLECTION]
3. Evaluate overall scale of action for each time projection. [EVALUATION]
4. Select the lowest of the scales that has a high quantity of action. [JUDGMENT]
5. Statement: "The upcoming turn will cover X years," where X is the value you decided. [EXECUTION]
6. Repeat as necessary. [LOOP]

The important part is JUDGMENT. It could be more (longer) than the lowest with some action if that action is fairly weak. If you have players getting some number of EP/year, or per number of years (the base temporal resolution, likely) then have them multiply that by however many units greater the turn itself will be. The only difficulty is collecting the responses. On the other hand, it will weed out people who don't really want to play, and most games take more than a week between updates now anyway, so there's plenty of time to actually do so.

Or, you can just cut the players out of it entirely and decrease it (or increase it) at your own prerogative, if that's too much work, and simply inform them of what it will be. The moderator tends to have some idea of what's going on and can roughly adjust the flow of time as necessary themselves.

A fluid system is quite possible if one's willing to work for it.
 
Interesting. i waited up for your reply, but have to go to bed now. I will mull this over and be back tomorrow late in the evening. Thanks.
 
Would Warhead be Nuke_Kid?

and what of "set our weapons on fire" as a worse order than "invade egypt from the sea"

maybe Egypt expected to have lost part of Egypt by that point, so its a counterattack :mischief:
 
Seriously, why can't we just consider the possibility of trying to fix BT, rather than skip over it? If a NES becomes boring, no matter the time frame, the mod and the players especially have the capability to make it interesting, if not politically then culturally, with events or stories. Having to skip ahead represents a failure on the part of the players.
 
Mankind has advanced more in the past 100 years than in the past 100,000 prior to that put together. That sort of exponential change argues extremely strongly against one-size. I would argue that the exact opposite problem is at work here: you are not appreciating the degree to which things are different now as opposed to then. From the Industrial Revolution forward the world pretty operates on completely different rules. Before then you can pretend it advanced linearly and not deviate from the curve too much in error. After that, it's nothing but folly to presume it continues on in such a way. It changes. Exponentially. One-size-fits-all lines don't do so hot on fitting exponential curves.

Bullcrap. This is going to make you rant and rave for half an hour, but it's true: not all that much has changed. The most significant technological change of the past century has been the computer, and that is arguably the only important change, as it allows us to automate much of what previously had to be manual. Prior to that, I challenge the assertion that advancements are that impressive. Humanity has seen only a few landmark changes: language in the last 50,000 years, civilization in the last 10,000. If you want to subdivide it, the Bronze Age was from 5000-c. 1500; the Iron age lasts nearly to the present day. The toys of the Industrial Revolution were really just extensions and harnessing of the power and mechanical resources that were already there in the Iron Age. We're still looking for more efficient ways to turn things and send things flying.

Now, yes, things did change significantly with the introduction of Electronics, but I dispute that they are so utterly different that an entirely different scheme is needed for the NESing environment. Things are not changing much faster now than they were before: the last decade has not seen a significantly higher degree of change than any decade long period. You merely think it does, because you undeniably have a bias, having lived in this decade. Who will really care about the War in Iraq, a hundred years from now? Only a few historians. Who will really care about specific conflicts like Kosovo? They will remember the breakup of the Soviet Union and the American crusade against terrorism, I think, but that's hardly too much to be covered in one or two updates.

The idea that somehow humanity is radically altered purely by the introduction of massive automation is silly. The last true revolution has been the electronic, and we have yet to see how the effects of that will fully pan out. In reality, things are not "progressing" much faster: information might be exponentially exploding, but important technological advancements, no, and changes in the basic scheme of how things were have not come to full fruition. So no, 20 years per turn works remarkably well for the Bronze Age; it works well for the Iron Age, and it works well for the 20th Century. We need to get over ourselves; a year in our life is not somehow more eventful than it was a hundred years ago.

People might be more or less the same, but that hardly matters when the tools at their disposal are such orders of magnitude more powerful, and their are powers more of them to use them. You can't just ignore advances and write them off because people act more or less the same in their base desires in computing a useful time-scale.

No, no, you don't understand. People aren't just acting off of the same base desires--that wasn't my point. Most people think just as quickly. Events, contrary to the belief that seems to be held, do not advance more quickly. Time has not sped up. The only reason to break years into shorter and shorter turns would then be to accommodate more events occurring in a single year, and even this is not so. Just because people take days where they would take minutes to get from place to place does not make things happen faster. Warfare still takes years to fully carry out: the occupation of even a small country like Iraq has been taking years; the ground war is fought quicker, yes, but that hardly means the war is over, as we are discovering to our sorrow. Cultural changes, and the big changes, are happening just as quickly or slowly as they did in the olden days, because people generally resist change, and the big things, those that involve the change of societies, must then wait for those people to fade away and be replaced: the generational length. This happens to be roughly the same for all of history. The simple stuff, like sending a package around the world, might happen much faster. An army can deploy much faster. But culture does not change faster, and culture is ultimately the true storyline of history.
 
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