While We Wait: Part 4

Oh please Joseph, I don't adore the PRC, it has its faults like every other government if not massively more. What really riles me is the way she is viciously attacked by almost everyone, being "ganged up upon" with no consideration at all for the Han view. Tibetans in Lhasa riot and start going after Han and Hui people in the city and some people see that as "Oh, China should let Tibet go, they're completely in the wrong. How could they treat the Tibetans in such a violent manner using riot police and etc?" Tibetans this, Tibetans that, who cares? If they launch a riot, they'll get put down like one. The PRC has shown great restraint and that seems to be something most people simply find unable to understand.

It is against China's policy and self-interest to utterly destroy Tibetan culture. At the moment, there isn't much to be gained from Tibet economically (long term there are all those minerals but...) except tourism. Yep, tourism to see Tibetan culture, their monasteries, their temples, their native dress, the whole package. As such, it can be expected that while Tibet will surely become "Han-nified," they can rest assured that their culture will remain intact if only for tourism purposes :p

And Political freedom means nothing if you don't have a roof over your head and three square meals a day. We shouldn't take it for granted that the vast majority of people in China want political rights, most of them would care less as they try to improve their standard of living by making more money. In their opinion, political freedom is not a right, but a luxury of the developed world.

EDIT: I mean, has it occurred to you that China has no desire to completely eradicate the Tibetan culture nor people? In the long run, what are 6 puny million people in the great sea that is China? The ethnic minorities don't get all those sweet benefits for nothing you know.

If the Olympics are ruined by Tiananmen Square Protests and Tibetan unrest, I'm sure the people responsible for such a catastrophe will pay dearly, very dearly. This is China's greatest moment in the last 200 years of misery, the people in China know that, and if it's ruined because of something like Democratic or Tibetan Protests, you can be sure the popular reaction will be terrible to behold. You think the riots in Lhasa were anything? God grant mercy to whoever will pay the price of a ruined Beijing Olympics because neither the PRC nor the vast majority of people in China will.

A successful Olympics will only encourage Beijing to slowly open up, instead of a swift and vicious crackdown.

And you call yourself American Alex? Because your political philosophy seems to suggest otherwise :p. Whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death?" (Which incidentally, today is the anniversary of his speech). Are you really arguing that if a people do not desire freedom, they do not deserve it? I suppose there's at least one person who agrees with you...

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

And my apologies if I can't look on the Olympics as anything more than a trumped up farce used purely for propaganda, on par with the 1936 Olympics :p. When China can hold their Olympics without having to enact mass censorship, turn off its factories for a week to make the air breathable, and lock up dozens of dissidents who may threaten their "harmonious society", then maybe I'll take it more seriously.
 
I'm arguing that if a people do not desire political freedoms, we shouldn't it ram it down their throats :p Using the word "deserve" is so... well, difficult; everybody deserves freedom, but if they would prefer something else as opposed to it, who are we to tell them that's the wrong choice and give them something they want less? Would that not go against freedom? ;)

It's not so much security but economic prosperity. It may just be me, but for a country coming out from economic poverty, it may seem important to get rich first. To quote a certain Chinese Communist, "To get rich is glorious."

Yes, the Olympics are propaganda for the world. But if China feels more secure in it as a result of a successful Olympics, she will feel more encouraged to open up.
 
No, absolutely not; I simply believe rocking the boat as it moves towards prosperity is a stupid idea.
 
No, absolutely not; I simply believe rocking the boat as it moves towards prosperity is a stupid idea.

One can say that boat may never even reach it.

Yes, the Olympics are propaganda for the world. But if China feels more secure in it as a result of a successful Olympics, she will feel more encouraged to open up.

In my opinion, once the Olympics are over, China will end whatever temporary freedoms they granted to the foreign press and the Chinese citizens.
 
China granted freedoms to her citizens? That's news to me, mind enlightening me? :D
 
China granted freedoms to her citizens? That's news to me, mind enlightening me? :D

Chinese citizens get to elect their local officials right? Correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't been to China for over eight years. :p

I think its just to look good in the international community for the Olympics...

EDIT: Not to mention Beijing has been giving more religious freedom to its citizens. And economic freedoms. ;)

But anyways, is everyone here of the opinion that China is the next great superpower?
 
Chinese citizens get to elect their local officials right? Correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't been to China for over eight years. :p

I think its just to look good in the international community for the Olympics...

EDIT: Not to mention Beijing has been giving more religious freedom to its citizens.

You are aware that most of the people would really care less who they get to elect since there are still qualifications for being nominated? Not much in the way of any concrete freedom if you ask me... The religious freedom thing doesn't seem to be limited to Beijing but all of the large wealthy coastal cities from Guangdong to Shanghai; seems more like changing attitudes than Central Communist Policy. And the economic freedoms come with the whole embracing of capitalism and materialism; if they can keep the economy going at a steady pace, no significant portion of the population will ever oppose the Party.

Since the point of the Olympics is to generally serve as propaganda about how good China is and improve her international image, it can be assumed that the Party wants to continue improving her image abroad and as such won't turn reactionary on the world barring unexpected circumstances.

By next Great Superpower you mean in like the next century, sure. But not anytime within my lifetime unless I live a really long time.
 
You are aware that most of the people would really care less who they get to elect since there are still qualifications for being nominated? Not much in the way of any concrete freedom if you ask me... The religious freedom thing doesn't seem to be limited to Beijing but all of the large wealthy coastal cities from Guangdong to Shanghai; seems more like changing attitudes than Central Communist Policy.

Since the point of the Olympics is to generally serve as propaganda about how good China is and improve her international image, it can be assumed that the Party wants to continue improving her image abroad and as such won't turn reactionary on the world barring unexpected circumstances.

By next Great Superpower you mean in like the next century, sure. But not anytime within my lifetime unless I live a really long time.

Okay. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :)

What do you say to claims that China will never become a super power due to the fact that it has too many internal problems?

The lack of drinking water, ethnic tensions, disparity between the rich and poor, lack of freedom, corruption, the volatility of China's political system, the damage to its natural resources, and the destruction of China's natural environment come to mind.
 
I don't believe ethnic tensions and the lack of freedom are things that prevent a country from becoming a superpower. Look at the USSR, they were a superpower ;)

I do not believe the ethnic tensions in China would prevent her from becoming a superpower although everything else you mentioned (aside from the lack of freedoms) would since the Han have such a massive population advantage that the small ethnicities mean nothing or have been won over with all those benefits.

I believe that time solves all problems and thus I remain optimistic for China's superpower status in the next century, after I'm dead.
 
isnt it a superpower already? What defines "superpower" ?
 
I think the two most crucial problems facing China today are a lack of fresh water and the depricency between the number of boys and girls. From what I heard, Chinese girls are being put up for adoption by the thousands (due to the One-Child policy) and Chinese family's eagerness to maintain their family name.

I don't know. I may be jaded from hanging around too many Taiwanese friends, but I just can't see it coming.

EDIT: Wikipedia defines a superpower as a state with a leading position in the international system and the ability to influence events and project power on a worldwide scale; it is traditionally considered to be one step higher than a great power. Alice Lyman Miller (Professor of National Security Affairs at the Naval Postgraduate School), defines a superpower as "a country that has the capacity to project dominating power and influence anywhere in the world, and sometimes, in more than one region of the globe at a time, and so may plausibly attain the status of global hegemon."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_power

In my opinion, (according to the Wikipedia scale), China fits the geographical, military, economic (partially), and demographic scale. China is apparently lacking politically and culturally. (and partially economically due to resources.)
 
I don't know, China doesn't exactly have the military capacity as her military projection is rather limited outside of East Asia though I would argue China does have significant political and cultural power and influence, simply not enough to qualify her for "superpower" in the next few decades.
 
China has no power projection abilities. Not a single aircraft carrier.

I..must debunk that claim. While China's navy cannot currently construct them, it has several Soviet era aircraft carriers. ;)

But they have all been long retired. Nevermind. :p
 
How come it lacks the ability to build them?
 
(continued OOC, perhaps take to WWW)

I know nations did divide Africa up this way, as regards a map, but how much longer did actual control of the area take? Also, wasn't it generally led by papal right?
[wiki]Scramble for Africa[/wiki]. Not once do any of the following words appear: Pope, Papacy, Papal, bull, Vatican, Rome, and holy.

Wikipedia is truth.

If anybody else would like to give an insight on the dividing up of Africa being led by Papal right, please do so or forever hold your peace.
 
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