who needs stacking for embarked units?

[ilteroi]

hello everybody,

the last wild idea of the year, i promise!

how about we take the 1UPT idea a bit more seriously and prohibit embarked combat units from stacking with real naval units? as for embarked civilian, i would allow stacking (just like on land) and allow them to be captured (just like on land).

advantages:

1. it's more logical for the player
2. it's much easier to code for the AI

so, what do you think? does anyone insist on this half-baked "now you can stack, now you can't"? (loaded question, i know ...)

edit: this is independent of how hard it is to kill those embarked combat units. one shot kills should be avoided of course.

 

[ryanmusante]

Agreed, stacking should be removed. Otherwise, its a free-for-all in the oceans which I think takes away from the strategy.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-version-december-18th-12-18.639855/page-4#post-15310156

 

[Enginseer]

I'd prefer if we can prohibit foreign embarked units from entering naval ships. Otherwise, it's a free for all when you lose one loose ship in your fleet and all your embarked units start sinking.

 

[CppMaster]

Then embarked combat units would be much easier to kill. Is that intended?

 

[tu_79]

I'm considering several escenarios where this is a bad idea.

1. Crossing a strait.
2. Slower disembarks.
3. Rogue ships attacking the rear.

Embarked units will be much more difficult to protect. Without land units there's no proper invasion.

 

[ryanmusante]

Embarked units will be much more difficult to protect. Without land units there's no proper invasion.

So basically no stacking equates to land units having no suitable military escorts or safe means of travel?

 

[chicorbeef]

I fear that it will be too easy to just murder the AI's embarked units and run.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I think it's an awful idea. AI's land units as it tries to board my continent are already easy to intercept, it'd make the task way too easy. Keep it as is, don't overcomplicate things for the sake of complicating them-

Unless you can make the AI understand how it goes I guess, then it'd be fine but it's pretty late in the mod's life for me to just get used to a completely different system.

 

[ilteroi]

i didn't say that embarked combat units should be easy to kill. that's a separate question.

 

[Rekk]

i didn't say that embarked combat units should be easy to kill. that's a separate question.

Easily killable escorts are the default. When you suggest a change, people will look at that change with everything else unchanged.

 

[SpankmyMetroid]

Dislike. There needs to be a safe way to get a land army across the ocean and protect them from ranged attacks from the land. This is often a necessity based on geography, unless you’re just supposed to sit and wait until air warfare and airports until you can use your land units again. It’d also be very difficult to juggle ship and unit movement in early naval warfare where your movement is very limited in the first place. Doubly so since coastal space is much more compact.

What if the amphibious promotion allowed for this stacking though? It’s be a nice promotion that makes the ‘attack coastal cities’ niche a little bit better.

 

[tothePAIN]

New poster here. Love the mod - thank you to Ilteroi, Gazebo, and others for all of the hard work in putting it together.

I like the current status quo of stacking naval and combat units. I'd oppose changing it for the reasons stated by others, particularly that protecting land combat units would be much more difficult, especially in confined naval terrain like straits.

The issue of making embarked combat units harder to kill is linked to the stacking issue because because of the cruiser line and air units. It's very difficult to protect an embarked combat unit from cruisers (and probably impossible to protect from air units), so they would die very easily if stacking was removed and it was not made harder to kill them. I'd oppose making embarked units harder to kill for thematic reasons - unprotected embarked combat units should die easily.

I have wondered why embarked civilian units are not capturable. I would be in favor of that change but I'm not a coder so I do not know if that idea is feasible.

 

[chicorbeef]

i didn't say that embarked combat units should be easy to kill. that's a separate question.

But this would be a big change to naval combat itself then, no? Not to mention the Amphibious/War Canoe promotions.

I don't know how much of an issue it is for the AI but I'm leaning towards not changing it. I've never had any issues personally.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

If you make them too hard to kill in the water, naval units will be ineffective at ensuring they don't reach the land, thus additionally disrupting the naval/land unit balance on top of the obvious things no stacking on water would do, like making some coast completely impassable for units that would otherwise stack. If my Corvettes won't stop a Tercio from boarding my continent, the result will be me making less Corvettes and more Cuirassiers to kill your Tercio. I like how it is now and dislike the idea of change.

 

[vyyt]

Sorry, big dislike - for reasons explained by others above (the embarked units (especially AI ones?) will be slaughtered by ranged and air or (if you make them more durable), the navies will become inefficient).

Why change it if it is working fine now?

 

[civplayer33]

Don't like this at all, for reasons stated (most importantly that it's too easy to kill embarked units; if you make them stronger, however, it's a huge nerf to navies).

I'd certainly be in favor of allowing the capture of embarked civilian units, though.

 

[bigcat88]

Maybe just introduce transport ships? Think about advantage not to move tons of land units during invasion or during returning back after war.

 

[tu_79]

Don't like this at all, for reasons stated (most importantly that it's too easy to kill embarked units; if you make them stronger, however, it's a huge nerf to navies).

I'd certainly be in favor of allowing the capture of embarked civilian units, though.

Yeah, capturing civils makes sense.

 

[civplayer33]

Maybe just introduce transport ships? Think about advantage not to move tons of land units during invasion or during returning back after war.

If by transport ships you mean a new naval unit that can carry several land units as cargo, then I'm thinking about how I can now sink even more AI land units with even less ships
If you want to make them very strong, though, that would be unrealistic and essentially be the same as making embarked units significantly stronger --> huge nerf to navies.

 

[Rekk]

I'm happy with the status quo.