Who Would be the 'Worst' Leader for Each Civ?

[NecromancerKing]

India: Gandhi, not a leader AT ALL.
Carthage: Hannibal, just a general, not a ruler.
England: Churchill

 

[SMcM]

Excluding second world war war criminals (who could have a list of their own), these are mix of the cruelest and most incapable rulers of civs:

England- Well, David Cameron and Gordon Brown are no longer current leaders . Probably Mary I though. Wouldn't rate Neville Chamberlain, Ethelred the Unready, King John, Richard the Lionheart or Richard III either.

Spain- Phillip IV; marked a significant decline in Spanish power through poor governance, physically and mentally disabled due to decades of incest

Germany- Wilhelm II; caused the collapse of the German empire

France- Louis XVI (a major cause for the revolution), Henry II (needlessly cruel)

Belgium- Leopold II; made a fortune from one of the most poorly run colonies in history, where millions died in a short space of time

India- Aurangzeb; his poor management lead to the economic decline of the Mughal empire, leading to its collapse

China- Wu Zetian; conspired her way to power, possibly including the murder of her own baby. Qin Shi Huang also ruthless in his ways, and towards the end of his life, insane (he tasked his greatest thinkers with discovering an elixir for immortality)

Egypt- Cleopatra VII; caused the collpase of Egypt, got to power through marrying and then murdering siblings

Ottomans- Murad IV; not necessarily a bad ruler, but certainly one of the most ruthless

Aztecs- Tizoc; sacrificed record numbers of people

Rome- Caligula, Commodus, Elagabalus, and too many others to list (many would suggest Nero also, but he is the victim of biased historical accounts, creating what is at best a caricature of the actual man)

Russia- Ivan IV the terrible; greatly expanded Russian power, but was obsessed with torture and killed without need. Nicholas II- a major reason for the revolution

Byzantium- Basil II, the Bulgar slayer

Persia- Xerxes I- merciless in his attempt to conquer Greece, but far from as evil as his '300' counterpart!

Greece- Alexander III, a pitiless and unforgiving conqueror also

America- Andrew Jackson- a brutal killer of native Americans. Also, a product of his perhaps, but Washington was a stern slave owner. He released them upon his death; this implies he knew it was wrong, but only did what he probably for a while had believed to be the moral thing when the slaves were no longer of use to him. I understand there are many other worse presidents than George though, and many would argue that George W Bush is definitely up there in terms of poor governance.

Zulu- Shaka; his army is said to have even killed women and children in his conquests

Mongolia- Genghis Khan; same as above, but on a much larger scale, though he did allow religious freedoms, so that is at least something

Huns- Attilla the Hun; another unscrupulous warlord

Arabia- Too easy to stray into controversial territory here, but certainly no lack of immoral leaders.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: If the leader is currently living, please do not include them. It only leads to current events discussions, that is for OT. Continued discussion of current leader will lead to thread closure.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Kirejara]

One of the candidates for "Worst leader ever!" (and possible also Darwin Award) seems to be Francisco Solano Lopez of Paraquay.

After Brazil interfered into the politics of Uruquay, he declared war on Brazil, and after Argentina refused to give his forces passage throught their lands, he declared war on Argentina too.

The result was horrible for the people of Paraquay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War

 

[SMcM]

One of the candidates for "Worst leader ever!" (and possible also Darwin Award) seems to be Francisco Solano Lopez of Paraquay.

After Brazil interfered into the politics of Uruquay, he declared war on Brazil, and after Argentina refused to give his forces passage throught their lands, he declared war on Argentina too.

The result was horrible for the people of Paraquay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War

I was going to suggest him, but Paraguay has never been in a civ game, so does not really fit the criteria. Apparently his nation reduced from over 1.2 million when he took power to around 200,000, after all of his hopeless wars. I think that you'd really struggle to come up with a worse leader.

 

[Kirejara]

I was going to suggest him, but Paraguay has never been in a civ game, so does not really fit the criteria.

We have at least his main adversary Pedro II of Brazil.

And Lopez behaved very civ-like.

In my current Civ3 game Temujin acted very similar: While at war with two larger nations, he decided that it would be a brilliant idea to invade the Iroquois (thats me!) too. Despite that I was his only source for iron and oil and my empire is not only much larger, but also significant more advanced...

 

[Civciv5]

China- Wu Zetian

I must object. Wu Zetian's rise to power only proves her perseverance and determination to get to the top and is no more cruel than many of the male emperors.
Much to the chagrin of Confucian nobles and clergy, Wu Zetian proved to be an able administrator and ruler, improving women's rights, selecting people by their skill and not status. She also built lots of monuments and reconquered many lost territory.

She was vilified and demonized by later Chinese historians by spreading false history and making her rule look bad in an attempt to make women seem unfit to ever rule.

 

[SMcM]

I must object. Wu Zetian's rise to power only proves her perseverance and determination to get to the top and is no more cruel than many of the male emperors.
Much to the chagrin of Confucian nobles and clergy, Wu Zetian proved to be an able administrator and ruler, improving women's rights, selecting people by their skill and not status. She also built lots of monuments and reconquered many lost territory.

She was vilified and demonized by later Chinese historians by spreading false history and making her rule look bad in an attempt to make women seem unfit to ever rule.

A weird arguement you make; I didn't claim she was China's worst leader, just one of its most sinister. Have you any evidence that claims made about her ruthless rise to power are false? If so, why not present it?

Also, yes, baby murder, if true, does make her a lot crueler than most Chinese rulers, especially when it is her own baby. Yes, I could name several other rulers who ruthlessly plotted their way to power, and who clung to power through brutal executions and censorship, and several others that were plain crazy. But to me, Wu is the most chilling.

 

[Civciv5]

Have you any evidence that claims made about her ruthless rise to power are false?

The accusation that Wu Zetian poisoned her baby is dubious at best. While her rise to power was indeed many times malevolent, it was no more cruel than what other male emperors did.

Her reign was a period of great prosperity and peace, which later historians claimed to be a great period of decline.

 

[SMcM]

The accusation that Wu Zetian poisoned her baby is dubious at best. While her rise to power was indeed many times malevolent, it was no more cruel than what other male emperors did.

Her reign was a period of great prosperity and peace, which later historians claimed to be a great period of decline.

Dubious? Okay, but still no source. Did you study this when you were at school or something, and not have available sources for the information anymore? I suppose you could argue that I should be providing evidence for what I am saying, as it is me making the assertion that she was a baby-murderer, but seeing as you seem to be a lot more knowledgeable on the subject, you should not find it hard to find something to back up the opinion you have offered, and prove me to be wrong.

We have at least his main adversary Pedro II of Brazil.

And Lopez behaved very civ-like.

In my current Civ3 game Temujin acted very similar: While at war with two larger nations, he decided that it would be a brilliant idea to invade the Iroquois (thats me!) too. Despite that I was his only source for iron and oil and my empire is not only much larger, but also significant more advanced...

That awkward moment when Hiawatha has an Empire to put that of Genghis Khan to shame!

 

[NecromancerKing]

I wonder those who dislike Wu Zetian would actually know anything about her in China where she's one of the very popular figures there with many TV shows based around her which portrayed her as very intelligent and powerful. Undeserving leaders according to who anyway? If the actual Chinese have no problem with it then I don't see why a bunch of outsiders should find it objectionable.

 

[SMcM]

I wonder those who dislike Wu Zetian would actually know anything about her in China where she's one of the very popular figures there with many TV shows based around her which portrayed her as very intelligent and powerful. Undeserving leaders according to who anyway? If the actual Chinese have no problem with it then I don't see why a bunch of outsiders should find it objectionable.

At least in this thread, I have not claimed her to be undeserving, and I see now one else here 'hating' on her. I am not hating on anyone, nor here am I arguing against anyone's inclusion in the game. Read the OP for this thread- you can post about ether cruel leaders or poor ones, and I have made quite clear that I did not select her on my list of 'worst leaders' for being a poor leader. Having said that, there are other leaders I would prefer, and so was just a tad bit disappointed by her being in Civ 5 as opposed to others such as Qin, Taizong or Xangxi.

 

[NecromancerKing]

At least in this thread, I have not claimed her to be undeserving, and I see now one else here 'hating' on her. I am not hating on anyone, nor here am I arguing against anyone's inclusion in the game. Read the OP for this thread- you can post about ether cruel leaders or poor ones, and I have made quite clear that I did not select her on my list of 'worst leaders' for being a poor leader. Having said that, there are other leaders I would prefer, and so was just a tad bit disappointed by her being in Civ 5 as opposed to others such as Qin, Taizong or Xangxi.

I didn't quote you, meaning I was speaking in general. People who are against her inclusion was strangely from outside of China. Whereas in China, she is a very popular figure in pop culture. It's just interesting when people dislike a certain inclusion but I would feel like the people who have the most right to voice their objections would be the people these leaders represented. Many Chinese wouldn't really have a problem with Wu as their leader. I wouldn't really mind cruel leaders, many historical leaders, even when great like FDR have their fair shares of cruelty.

 

[Krajzen]

India: gandhi

He is extremely overrated, amoral, none of his ideological plans were ever adopted, and that's good because they were terrible.

He was against science, medicine, infrastructure, modern eduction, civilization and even vaccines (and even managed to kill his wife by denying her vaccines... they taking them himself when he was critically ill).

He also managed to praise Mussolini, Hitler and imperial Japan and try to convince allies to surrender to them (and jews to surrender to holocaust - no, seriously) while being anti-black racist himself.

He was terrible, despotic person in private life, terrible thinker and terrible leader. But oh yeah he told cute cheap 'peace love' nonsense, so Western popculture had to love him.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/the-real-mahatma-gandhi/308550/

germany: hitler
russia: stalin
china: mao

 

[Civciv5]

Gandhi is indeeed a horrible choice for the 6th time in a row, if he's in the game I just won't buy the game. Period.

 

[SMcM]

One arguably heavily overrated person in the west is Che Guevara; many protesting free speech like to wear shirts bearing he face, oblivious that the man would have denied many people this basic right; "We must eliminate all newspapers; we cannot make a revolution with free press" he told José Pardo Llada.

Gandhi is indeeed a horrible choice for the 6th time in a row, if he's in the game I just won't buy the game. Period.

I presume you are not serious; I too am bored of having a 20th century protest leader represent a nation with thousands of years of history, but I for one will instead mod him out of the game at the first opportunity. I find his choice very puzzling though; surely considering their desire to include a lot of female leaders, Nur Jahan would have seemed a very good choice; she at least makes as much sense as Theodora for Byzantium in Civ 5.

 

[Guandao]

One arguably heavily overrated person in the west is Che Guevara; many protesting free speech like to wear shirts bearing he face, oblivious that the man would have denied many people this basic right; "We must eliminate all newspapers; we cannot make a revolution with free press" he told José Pardo Llada.



I presume you are not serious; I too am bored of having a 20th century protest leader represent a nation with thousands of years of history, but I for one will instead mod him out of the game at the first opportunity. I find his choice very puzzling though; surely considering their desire to include a lot of female leaders, Nur Jahan would have seemed a very good choice; she at least makes as much sense as Theodora for Byzantium in Civ 5.

How about Razia Sultana? She was a female leader of the Delhi Sultanate. She's Muslim though.

 

[Civciv5]

Razia Sultana ruled in her own right as Sultana, though she ruled for only a few years and accomplished nothing noticable. I don't know if she would be a good choice, but her leaderscreen would look fantastic of course.

I presume you are not serious; I too am bored of having a 20th century protest leader represent a nation with thousands of years of history, but I for one will instead mod him out of the game at the first opportunity.

Nope, not joking. If the devs are stupid enough to put him in again, I just won't buy the game, period.
It's not worth it, maybe when it's on sale a few years later.

 

[SMcM]

How about Razia Sultana? She was a female leader of the Delhi Sultanate. She's Muslim though.

I'd still see Nur Jahan as the more obvious choice for Firaxis; she was very influential queen during her 16 years as consort to a weak willed emperor. Razia Sultana only ruled for four years. She also has more know. about her than Razia Sultana due to being a lot more recent.

As for being a Muslim, both of these women were to my knowledge.

 

[INVICVS]

why does no one mention Ashoka as potential leader of India?