whoknows01 - C3C Training on Monarch - Conq/Dom

[predesad]

that's prolly as good as any for a settler.

a curragh would be good, but maybe a 2nd settler before the curragh?

i had a thought for the capitol being an 8 turn archer / settler factory, would take quite a bit of set up and wastes lots of shields, but mainly because we have so many good tiles and no matter what we build we are going to waste shields somewhere. anyway, here is my thought:

size 4 = 9 shields, 3 turns for archer
city to grow the next turn with granary = 11 shields, + 1 turn size 5 = 11 shields, 2 turns for archer
size 5 = 11 shields, 3 turns for settler
2 archers and 1 settler every 8 turns, just a thought, but for right now i would like a curragh (or two) and maybe a couple more jags so basically this is just an idea for later not to set up for right now.

 

[whoknows888]

I like the cities CxxC or CxxxC, but it doesn't bother me how you have it. I'd say build 1 or 2 more jag wars and a curragh then a settler, but we may waste turns if we miss the oppurtunity to build the settlers. In other notes the other city should produce a worker either all times or the second city can do a worker, jag war, archer, worker build. If anyone else wants to comment make them lol .

 

[Mach]

The great Machtezuma surveys the young land and sees pristine rivers, rolling hills, and something pungent and smokey just over the horizon. Still he finds it lacking. His people are hungry! He sends his lackeys off to search the land...

PreFlight -- adjust lux to 0%
settler e
hit space
(I) -- nothing

Turn 1 (3000) -- settler ne
Bob Zuma attacks the evil barb, wins losing 1HP, so to celebrate he...heads s.
Fred Zuma e hits ocean, ne
(I) -- nothing

Turn 2 (2950) -- settler ne
worker nw
Bob Zuma rests
Fred Zuma w hits ocean, s
(I) -- nothing

Turn 3 (2900) -- settler ne
worker mines
Bob Zuma s, s
Fred Zuma se, s
Sci to 70%, alpha still in 2
(I) -- Chinese pick up alphabet! Doh!

Turn 4 (2850) -- Teotihuacan founded, set to granary
Fred Zuma s, s
Bob Zuma sw, s
Sci to 10%, alpha in 1
(I) -- Alpha comes in, sci to 100%, set to writing in 24
English settler/warrior pair shows up s of Bob.
They'll give us bw for wc & 14g, i take it, we are at parity with the english.

Turn 5 (2800) -- Bob se, se
Fred w
(I) -- nothing

Turn 6 (2750) -- Bob ne, e
Fred s
(I) -- Chinese warrior shows up s of undefended Tenoch. Please don't attack us! Good Chinese, nice Chinese...

Turn 7 (2710) -- Fred e
Bob sw, w, runs into Korean warrior, Koreans are up masonry, wheel, cb
There's a 2fer here, but we can't afford it.
(I) -- Chinese warrior walks away...

Turn 8 (2670) -- Fred e, e
Bob sw, w
(I) -- nothing

Turn 9 (2630) -- worker roads
Fred s, se
Bob w
(I) -- nothing

Turn 10 (2590) -- Bob nw, w
lux to 10%

I'll stop now. So much for using alphabet as trade bait. We're at parity with the english, down cb & masonry to the chinese, down cb masonry & wheel to the koreans. Not much we can do there for the moment.

Teoti has 12 shields invested in a granary, there's still time to change it to a unit or rax. Bob is heading sw, Fred is sitting in the middle of the continent, he can go bust the rest of the fog north, or he could explore south, or he could head home. I left that decision for who -- Fred still has movement points left.

I'll post the save & screenshot in a sec.

 

[Mach]

Here's the Save.

And here's a picture:

We can make both Tenoch & Teoti into our 8 turn unit/settler factories, so they would each need a granary and a rax. predesed I think you're right, Tenoch can get 2 20 shield units out, Teoti may only get one.

Red dot can be a 5spt unit factory, needing only a rax. Blue dot grabs both flood plains and a bg, so with some improvements it can make 5fpt & 5spt, making a perfect worker factory, with a granary. So I was thinking we could settle red dot first, then blue dot. All these city spots are on rivers. After this, we could put an incense city down by those lakes, and a commerce city nw of Teoti on the coast.

To do this we'd have to squeeze some workers out of Tenoch & Teoti. Improvements are going to be very high priority. The downside of this plan is we may be unit-poor for awhile until we get these machines up and running.

That's what I was thinking. What does everyone think? Was anyone thinking along different lines than this? I have the feeling that all this would just take too long to develop. I'm not very good at starts with no food bonuses...

 

[predesad]

All in all I think we are in decent shape. Sux about alphabet, but i think too many sefaring / commercial civs to trade with prevented our being able to trade it. Perhaps a few more contacts we can find someone to trade with. I have not looked at save yet, but sounds like you did a good job, Mach.

My thoughts:

1) DO NOT PANIC over tech, i still think republic slingshot is doable, contacts are very important and we should keep an eye on anyone who discovers writing. DO NOT TRADE writing until right before philosophy is discovered unless another civ also discovers writing (at that point trade writing like crazy because the other civ will anyway) Once a civ has writing, if there are any goody huts left and a civ pops a tech, it will be philosophy. If we get Republic Slingshot we easily catch up even if writing is fully distributed since we would have monopolies on philosophy, code of laws, and republic. So again, do not panic about tech race. Contacts are very important, I think our jags need to stay out there exploring, there are still civs to find.

2) in order to get the unit / settler factory up and running our city has to grow to size 5 anyway, so I say let's think about getting out a couple units after the granary or go right for the barracks (which is only 20 shields and migh tonly take 3 turns if we have 7 shields) to allow some growth before the 2nd settler. Then we can afford to focus on the barracks for both those cities. It seems to take forever getting things set up, but once you are there it is like boom, your civ explodes right before your eyes. I think with patience we can develop those cities like we want without hurting ourselves and we'll be much better off in the long run

3) i see we have 3 lux nearby, dyes, incense, and ivory. Lots of fresh water sites. Republic may be a good option as a government. oh, make that 4 lux, silks also nearby. add a market and that's 6 happy faces. trade those silks because there are extras and we could import a couple more hopefully, until we just take them

4) your red dot was where i was considering putting the 2nd city and was going to head the settler in that direction until i decided to let you decide, so that is obviously a good site IMO. (do not take this as a complaint about your 2nd city site)

5) we need more workers asap or our plans will never materialize

 

[whoknows888]

I do agree, yet shouldn't we be turning out settlers at size 4? Also we need to build MP (1 or 2 per city) in our cities incase of a suprise attack.

Would it be best to move the settler 1 sw from red dot so we can get incense? After the granary in teo I'll build a worker.

 

[whoknows888]

predesad
Mach - Just went
whoknows888 - Up
TCS1 - On deck

 

[whoknows888]

I have the save, I will work on it when I get home from school.

 

[Mach]

@predesed -- 5.) Agreed. Red dot will be hurting bad until we can get some of those plains irrigated, so maybe workers are currently a higher priority than settlers. We could push out a pair of workers from Tenoch instead of it's next settler. The first could mine/road around our current cities, the second could road to red dot then start irrigating. Just a thought.

@whoknows -- Tenoch needs to be at ~10spt in order to do a unit --> unit --> settler cycle in 8 turns, and the smallest size it can do that is at size 5. So the cycle will have to be something like (size 5) archer --> archer --> (grow to size 6) --> settler. predesad pointed out the cycle could start in the middle of size 4, but still we can't start the settler until size 5 or 6.

Moving red dot toward the incense is a thought, but that moves it off the river, and it makes the spacing between red & blue dots pretty loose. We can put an incense city on the lakes later; I don't think we're hurting for luxuries in the short term...

TCS1, are you around? We haven't heard from you in awhile...

Good luck, who!

 

[whoknows888]

I do agree though, and I made some comments on your screen if you don't mind.

 

[Mach]

@whoknows -- I agree with you here. I chose blue dot's location because I thought it could be a 2-turn worker factory without expansions, but I made the rookie mistake of forgetting about waste. So at first blue dot would only be a 3-turn factory, needing an expansion (or maybe just a courthouse) to get it down to 2 turns.

Northern grey dot can be a 3-turn factory at first, but then after an expansion it grabs that 2nd flood plain and becomes a 2-turn factory. So it has the same thing going, but with less waste & corruption. Better idea.

Also notice that at size 8, in republic, with the irrigated flood plain & irrigated grasssland, northern grey dot can use all six interior mined hills for a cool 19spt! Now that's before waste of course, but with a courthouse and a few more pop points, I'm pretty sure we can get it to a net 20spt. Flood plains by hills are powerful...

So I vote for northern grey dot, it can make workers for a long time, then switch to units later. Southern grey dot doesn't get the 2nd flood plain, so it doesn't get my vote.

 

[predesad]

I think i like the revised city locations (northern grey dot), but the issue about needing a cultural expansion to get the 2nd flood plains could be a problem, we wont have a tech to get any culture for awhile if research goes as planned, nobody else has said anything to contradict my suggestions yet, but we could also stumble along a contact with trade potential. Of course, another city placed right beyond those flood plains may bring the flood plains into the borders without an expansion, but that would be a much later consideration, but still possibly sooner than a culture building.

to review my previous suggestion for an 8 turn 2 archer settler factory which Mach liked:

@ pop 4: start building archer - 3 turns
1 turn pop 4 + 1 turn pop 5: archer - 2 turns
pop 5: settler - 3 turns (settler is finished the same turn city grows to pop 6 and goes back to pop 4)

i think that is the most effiecient 8 turns we can get, since it will take 8 turns of growth to build a settler anyway.

a second city will hopefully provide another 8 turn factory - 1 unit - 1 settler

we need a barracks in capitol besides granary, and we need at least 1 more mined BG for it to work. However, this cycle does not have to start right now, we can wait until after the next settler is built and in the meantime get the barracks up, a curragh maybe, another jag, etc, etc.

As far as workers, our capitol worker has about 20 more turns of work in the capitol and then can be freed up for other uses, i think. other cities need to think about workers as first build until we do something about worker factory, IMO. 2nd city, whatever its name is, might need to build a worker after granary, but I do not really want to build a worker in capitol because of interference with settler. if we had had a food bonus i usually build warrior, warrior, worker, but we had no food bonus. For right now we are short on workers but can survive as long as this is made a priority soon, IMO.

Because I know I ramble a lot, a simple way of explaining what I am trying to say about workers: let's not let worker builds interfere in the land grab phase or we could lose out, but make them a high priority in cities not building settlers.

 

[predesad]

so what's the deal? who knows what happened to whoknows?

 

[whoknows888]

I've been doing homework, sorry. I'm leaving to go out of town tomorrow, and I will play first thing in the morning and post a log and screen. Sorry guys.

 

[whoknows888]

Pre-turn: I examine our situation. If we can get writing we will have good trade options. After the granary I am going to build some MPs.

Turn 1 2550 BC: Move Fred Zuma 2 NW. Moved Bob Zuma 2 North. We have diamonds near us! Going to be good if we can get to them.

IBT: nothing really, troop movement.

Turn 2 2510 BC: Move Bob Zuma onto mountains to view terrain closes to us. Fred Zuma 1 NW through the jungle

IBT: troop movements

Turn 3 2470 BC: Have to set the science slide to 80%, -1 gpt. Writing in 16 turns. Moving worker to road and mine sw of capital. Building 2 spearmen in capital. Bob Zuma discovers flood plains and desert to the south of our capital by the incense. This can be a very good worker/settler factory.

IBT: Nothing.

Turn 4 2390 BC: There is 2 wheats on the flood plains. This is really good news!!! Worker begins build on road.

Turn 5 2350 BC: Nothing exciting.

Turn 6 2310 BC: tenochtitlan spearman -> spearman (in 3). Korea gained the Wheel.

Turn 7 2270 BC: Set science slider to 70%, writing still in 9 turns. Worker begins on mine. Bob Zuma discovers 2 dyes. We are getting 2 gpt. Nothing fascinating yet.

Turn 8 2230 BC: Our second city revolt, I thought I put the lux slider up to 20%. Spearman in 1.

Turn 9 2190 BC: tenochtitlan spearman -> jag war. Fred Zuma heading west close to our capital and looks like will be heading towards the mountain where the diamonds are.

Turn 10 2150 BC: Writing in 6, I’ll move one jag war. Next person.

 

[whoknows888]

I forgot the screenie

TCS1 is up.

TCS1 post the screen if you can, if not someone else. Gotta go, later guys.

 

[Mach]

Looking pretty good. Things moving according to plan. Bummer about the rioting. A few things...

I would switch that jag build to an archer. I'm getting afraid of someone demanding writing from us once we have it, and if we say no and end up in a war, the archer will serve us well against warriors. Since there seems to be only one direction to scout toward, Bob & Fred should suffice as scouts...

Looks like our incense city will be more powerful than I thought, with the wheat -- it could also be a worker factory. Should we settle that before northern grey dot? Anybody want to make a more comprehensive dotmap?

 

[predesad]

First of all, yes things do look good for us and I have no real complaints, but there are a couple things I might have done differently. I might have considered making those spears archers instead, I build very few spears, but we did need the MPs to lower the lux rate. The new find has huge consequences & is easily a 2 turn worker factory at pop 5. While I did not make a comprehensive dot map, I picked out what I think would be a good spot for the worker factory, although someone else might have a better idea. The red dot is a place we already decided to settle, the purple dot is the worker factory. Because of the proximity of other cities we won't need any culture expansions to get all the necessary tiles in our border, plus this gets incense and I think these should be our next 2 cities instead of the grey dot in the north from the previous spot, although that is still a good spot, but the location of it might be in question now that we have a more convenient worker factory spot and i think that spot might need to be third on the list, possibly even lower because with so many luxuries out there we might want to grab some of those before the AI, but that is debatable & I am not sure right now. The purple slashes represent worked tiles.

Since we are by a lake we get 3 food in city square from agr trait + 1 shield, (1)irr wheat on flood plains = 5 food, (2) irr flood plains = 3 food, (3) irr incense on desert = 2 food (agr trait) + 1 shield, (4) mined plains = 1 food + 2 shields, (5) forest = 1 food + 2 shields. Total = 15 food, (+5/turn) + 6 shields. If we lose more than one shield 2 corruption, then we can also mine the grassland for an extra shield and still maintain +5 fpt.

Perhaps someone else could work out a settler factory from that spot, but i think by the time it even gets set up the land grab might be over and we might be better off to just stick with our other two cities for settlers since we are in a desperate need for workers.

After discovering writing the next major research decision would be to go for republic slingshot with CoL then Phil, or just get the free tech w/ Phil. Since noone we know yet has writing I think it is still worth the gamble to go for rep slingshot, but this also means we might not want to risk trading writing yet.

Right now for longterm goals I would put China on our list as the first civ to eliminate. Our capitol still needs a barracks and then if we do decide on 2 archers / settler factory there it should not be long until we are capable of starting a war

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

 

[Mach]

Ok, so it's been 24 for TCS to pick it up. He posted a 'got it' in another game just yesterday, so he's around. I pm'd him this morning, so let's give him some time.

As for the current topics, I would actually have built 4 warriors instead of the 2 spears. They have approximately the same defensive value, except they have more mp value.

Second, I agree wholeheartedly with purple dot. Nice job! We should settle that next. I'm still comfortable with our two settler/unit cities, so let's let purple dot make workers. So I'm in agreement here, in other words.

Republic slingshot, check. We seem to be doing fine there, so CoL next.

As for destroying China someday, I agree, they are the first target. It would be nice to own (what is most probably) the end of our landmass, with only one front to worry about. I notice China has iron working, so an archer rush gets less possible as time goes on, depending on where the iron is. What kind of force do you guys think we should build up for an attack? I think 5-6 archers (& a spear?) as a first wave would do nicely -- that should at least be enough to destroy the first city we reach. And we'll keep constant reinforcements streaming up...

 

[predesad]

Mach , I agree with you about the 4 warriors thing, but i was thiniking in terms of 20 shield units, archers over spears, but for MP's I would have just taken warriors they could stay as MP until we are ready to upgrade them to swords.

You seem to be thinking along the same lines as I am, if we get a barracks in the capitol and about 5-6 archers I think we go. As far as the ironworking thing, I am going to hedge on the Chinese starting to build a wonder before they bother to hook up the iron, or at about the same time. Agree we should not stall on the archer rush, but I think we have time for the unit build up. I guess the only real question is should we build that barracks or go with regular archers. Production wise, a barracks = 1 archer since we are militaristic.

Perhaps TCS forgot he signed up for this one, hope he picks it up soon.