Whos Angry?

Are you happy with the way mac gamers are being treated by the developing communities

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 16.7%
  • No

    Votes: 20 83.3%

  • Total voters
    24
Originally posted by Gottesfreunde
i am just supposed to be gushing and thankful that the company made the port to begin with, and give them money just for doing that to prove how thankful i am?!!! B.S. Crap like this hurts the platform, hurts the consumer, and simply can not be good for business.

While this is probably the last thing you want to hear, the reality is that the Mac is a very small market compared to the PC, and as such it's much harder and more expensive to pour resources into things like this, especially if the original PC app continues to be modified past the release date. The bottom line is that as a Mac user, odds are better than average that in these cases, you're not going to maintain feature parity with the PC version, unless the PC team has committed resources specifically for the Mac build (which literally never happens). If that upsets you to the point of severe emotional distress, then the gods-honest-best thing you can do is buy a PC, or wait for the Mac market to grow much larger than what it currently is.

Brad
 
Originally posted by Brad Oliver


..... the Mac is a very small market compared to the PC, and as such it's much harder and more expensive to pour resources into things like this, ....

Brad

Off topic somewhat, I'm curious as to what kind of profit the mac companies earn. I'm not looking for anything to point at, just curious. If the market for mac-gaming is that small, these folks must be Democrats! :lol:
 
Originally posted by Brad Oliver


While this is probably the last thing you want to hear, the reality is that the Mac is a very small market compared to the PC, and as such it's much harder and more expensive to pour resources into things like this, especially if the original PC app continues to be modified past the release date. The bottom line is that as a Mac user, odds are better than average that in these cases, you're not going to maintain feature parity with the PC version, unless the PC team has committed resources specifically for the Mac build (which literally never happens). If that upsets you to the point of severe emotional distress, then the gods-honest-best thing you can do is buy a PC, or wait for the Mac market to grow much larger than what it currently is.

Brad

Brad this is the crux of my argument and of my question. While i have indeed chosen to purchase a cheap PC to play games on due to the knowledge of what you have written above, and although on one level this makes sense to me, overall it does not. It seems like a "catch 22". It would seem to me that if Mac games were on parity with their PC counterparts, and had the same support, that more of the games would be sold. If more games were available for the Mac that were on parity with the PC counterparts, it would seem that more Macs would also be sold as the impression that games on Macs are crap would be slowly eroded away.

i have read, and think that i understand where you are coming from in your arguments concerning the frequent updates, the squashing of your free time, etc for the builds. Perhaps i have not been clear enough, through my criticisms, to relate how admirable this is of you to do. i certainly appreciate your efforts, more so when they are given freely. If patches are on the way for a game that is to be ported, why are these updates not included or renegotiated in the contract? From what you are writing, it would appear that MacSoft is a small company indeed if you have to do work by yourself without additional resources allocated.

i just fail to see how it helps game companies, such as MacSoft, in the long run if more people choose to do as i do. If your argument--which appears to be very closely in line with the crux of my own--is true, then this situation *is* a downward spiral. i love my Mac, and i wish more people would use them, especially as i experience all the limitations and convoluted nature of my WinTel PC. Perhaps getting the game is better than not getting it at all, however, but i don't see, especially in the troubled economy that we have now, why people would choose to continue to purchase games that can not be on par with their PC counterparts--especially a game such as this one in which this issue is so very important to those of us who want to get as much out of it as possible. The endearing quality of THIS game is the gamers ability to modify it, make their own scenarios, etc.

This game has appeared on the Mac since its inception. If i recall, the first version was created on a Mac. It has not been until this version that the Mac community has truly been left out in the cold. For a game as big as this one to be in such straits, i am left feeling that the situation is not going to be improving much for future games. This, to me, does not bode well for the platform that supports the porting industry in the first place.

To say that one should just switch to another game, however, is akin to saying if you don't like god in the pledge of allegiance, you should move to another country. The point is Civ III and its measure, not an open sourced imitation of it. However, as i will check out those other alternatives mentioned previously in the thread, the appeal of Civ III is unquestionable, esp. as it appears the game is improving through the ability to actually create maps with starting locations, the upcoming expansion pack, etc.

A catch 22 indeed.
 
Well said, Gottesfreunde. If I might amplify one point, it seems to me that, while buying a Wintel machine for gaming is an easy - and admittedly effective - solution in the SHORT term, it is counterproductive in the LONG term for precisely the reasons you have articulated.

The only real long-term solution is parity (at least) between Mac and Windows software availability and quality. True, complete parity won't happen anytime soon, but situations like the current status of Civ3 really do seem to be setbacks in terms of that goal.
 
Gottesfreunde (God's Friend?) For someone who doesn't care, you sure write a lot. We're commenting on ONE game here--an extremely complex and expandable game with enormous user input..

Go and check out InsideMacGames or Macgamer.com and see what is happening in the wider world of Mac games.
 
Originally posted by Gottesfreunde
If patches are on the way for a game that is to be ported, why are these updates not included or renegotiated in the contract?

There's really no way to know what the future holds for any game when a contract is signed, so we have to take things as they come. Not surprisingly, sometimes we'll hit a rough spot, and it takes time for everyone involved to figure out where to go next. Let's all just wait and see what happens.

The endearing quality of THIS game is the gamers ability to modify it, make their own scenarios, etc.

I'd like to point out that this "endearing quality" of which you speak was radically different (and quite limited) when the game was released on the PC side (and when everything was planned for the Mac version). I should also point out again that the editor phoenomenon is not limited to Civ3: tons of Mac games do not include the editor because it's usually prohibitively expensive to do: Quake 3 and the Unreal games jump immediately to mind. They're certainly no less important to those games than the Civ3 editor is to Civ3.

If i recall, the first version was created on a Mac. It has not been until this version that the Mac community has truly been left out in the cold.

I should point out that the Civ series did not start out on the Mac, it was a DOS app. Furthermore, MacSoft hasn't made any announcement about 1.29f, so let's try and keep things in perspective until then. And I should also point out that both Civ2 and SMAC multiplayer were Mac-only, so depending on what you consider "essential" to the game, Mac users took a hit back then too.

Brad
 
Originally posted by Brad Oliver

tons of Mac games do not include the editor because it's usually prohibitively expensive to do: Quake 3 and the Unreal games jump immediately to mind. They're certainly no less important to those games than the Civ3 editor is to Civ3.

This is what i am talking about, and it boggles my mind. i suppose we are just so thankful the games are coming to the Mac that we take what we can get. i wish i knew programming myself so that i could jump in the fray and make things radically different.

I should point out that the Civ series did not start out on the Mac, it was a DOS app. Furthermore, MacSoft hasn't made any announcement about 1.29f, so let's try and keep things in perspective until then. And I should also point out that both Civ2 and SMAC multiplayer were Mac-only, so depending on what you consider "essential" to the game, Mac users took a hit back then too.

You may be right on that. i can't remember where i heard that it was created on a Mac, but i seem to recall a conversation ages ago in reference to it. But, since i can't find any supporting evidence, so be it.

i tend to get rather passionate about things i strongly believe, and i do apologize if i have offended, as that was not my intention. i am impatient to be able to relax in front of my Mac and play the games that appeal to me without having to settle on my clunky PC if i want to have fun on a computer. i am also quite passionate about the Mac as a superior platform, and i want it to succeed. However, i consistently find it becoming more difficult to support.

i can wait, and when i get tired of that, at least i can play the game on the PC.
 
Originally posted by Gottesfreunde
i am also quite passionate about the Mac as a superior platform, and i want it to succeed. However, i consistently find it becoming more difficult to support.

I feel the same way, which is why I got into Mac porting in the first place. However, let's take a rational look at it.

The "Mac gaming scene" isn't going to mature based on ports alone, and it likely never will. The real battle is fought by those titles that ship simultaneously for the Mac and PC, ship on the Mac first or ship only on the Mac. Big success stories in Mac gaming in the past include SimCity (Mac-first), Myst (Mac-first), the Marathon series (Mac-only, then Mac-first). Ports can only go so far to establish the legitimacy of Mac gaming - they say we're (frequently) just as good as the PC as a platform, but at the expense of an editor here or there, or a release date that's after the PC ship date, sometimes by quite a while. And honestly, there will never be manpower enough for every Mac port to ship day-and-date with the PC version with all the bells and whistles, by definition of the porting process. That's a hard reality, but it's true. We got close with Civ3 (it shipped fairly close to the PC and an editor is on the way), but the stream of patches to the game after the fact have complicated things.

As of the past several years, the number of high-profile Mac-first or Mac-only titles has pretty much dropped to zero, and the number of game developers who created those cutting-edge AAA titles on the Mac have all moved on, and no one has stepped up to fill their shoes. When you look to the Mac as a gaming machine, this is the indicator to watch, and it's pretty clear nowadays what it's indicating. The number of ported titles to the Mac is now huge compared to years past, while titles that push the Mac as a gaming platform to start with have dropped to near zero.

Brad
 
Most people buy macs because they are superior on the hardware and software side. The sacrifice made is on the price and the number of software packages. Most of the business, graphics, and non-gaming software is available for the mac and are far superior to their PC versions. Mac OSX is the best OS out in the market. I have had my powerbook for a year now, running OSX from the begining , and computer has not crached yet. And I never turn it off. Am I going to change to a PC because a few games are not available for the Mac. Hell no, if I want to really get into gaming, I'll buy playstation or a X box. That is where the future of gaming is going. Not on to the PCs or MACs. I think CIV 3 is great the way it is, and if they want to make the patch or the editor, that is fine. If not, I could care less. I have a much better computer than PC owners and it is a joy to use. And Macs are not so much more expansive than the PC. Compare prices among comparable systems. They cost about the same.
 
If anyone has any doubt about games for our platform, check out:-

http://www.macgamer.com/features/futurereleases/index.php

They are currently tracking 86 games. Back to Civ3--it is different from other games for me, because it allows me to play with 'what if?' ideas in history. The AI is good enough to keep challenging me, so I don't get the sense that I 'know' the game. However, I want an Editor--and I know I'll get one eventually--in order to explore my 'what ifs?' in different eras.

What I would like to know is if there is a compensatory algorithm (sorry about that) which shows a balance of price versus overall sales. If we are a smaller community (duh!), what would we have to pay in order to make certain developments viable? PC folks have an economy of scale; Mac folks may not have a critical mass to make developments worthwhile. The problem with mass marketing is that these decisions are taken out of the consumers' hands. And yes, I know that cost is not the only consideration in the present situation, because not all the resources may be available at any price.

My present guess is that we will get full parity with the PC Editor when a 'saleable' package, such as Civ3:PTW, is released.
 
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