Why are horses so rare now?

[DilithiumDad]

Resource distribution does seem to be streaky. I played as the Romans for four games and never got any iron without having to conquer another civ. I decided the Romans were over-rated and moved on to other civs. Wouldn't you know it, I got iron every time.

I think there's a line in the programming that detects what resource you most need, and make sure they put in Aztec lands.

 

[gunter]

I think there's a line in the programming that detects what resource you most need, and make sure they put in Aztec lands.

I wouldn't be surprised if such algorythm had been hiddenly inserted somewhere.

It is true that the mind in these cases tends to remember only factors played against but in Civ I , II and above all in Civ III I also clearly remind such situations where brokening the keyboard was my only way to accept those very weird " coincidences "....and I had also never had them playing by my side .. maybe only very few lucky single combats but the big picture were always against me . Secret sudden mafia conspirations were almost routine when the game were quite in my favour.

 

[Willem]

What makes you think I know how to do that? I'm not a computer expert but I do play the game. And I'm just making an observation and guess what others agree. These are our observations. If what you've seen in programming is different than that's fine but it doesn't change what we've observed.

Human powers of observation are a fickle thing. You can have a dozen people observe the same event and each one will give a different version of what actually took place later on. And quite often what they percieve as being the truth is completely different from the actual reality of the situation. Unless you can offer some definitive proof that things have been changed, like I have, then your conjectures don't really mean very much.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Horses are now rarer because of the extra French Leader, and someone must have eaten them

 

[HiroHito]

I dont get any salpeter I wonder why /yawn

 

[Silence101]

Last night I played a game where a barbarian warrior killed off my combat I promoted warrior who was defending a city. (And fortified, I might add.) Of course, the city got razed... great start. It was my third city. And just as I was about to cry out "CHEATER", I remembered that my exploring warrior had discovered two techs from goody huts earlier the same game.

The morale of this story... we see what we want to see.

 

[Willem]

One question is if the Warlords file has changed since its original implementation; it's possible that this change was actually made in a Warlords patch.

The possibilty of this crossed my mind so I did a little checking up. I uninstalled Civ4 and all expansions and started to put them back in from scratch. I didn't have to go very far to see that nothing has been changed since vanilla was released. The frequency of all resources in the game are determined by the CIV4BonusInfos.xml file. Here's the entry for Horses for Vanilla, no patches, with all the lines determining how many are placed on the map bolded.

<BonusInfo>
<Type>BONUS_HORSE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_BONUS_HORSE</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BONUS_HORSE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<BonusClassType>BONUSCLASS_RUSH</BonusClassType>
<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BONUS_HORSE</ArtDefineTag>
<TechReveal>NONE</TechReveal>
<TechCityTrade>TECH_ANIMAL_HUSBANDRY</TechCityTrade>
<TechObsolete>NONE</TechObsolete>
<YieldChanges>
<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
</YieldChanges>
<iAITradeModifier>0</iAITradeModifier>
<iHealth>0</iHealth>
<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
<iPlacementOrder>1</iPlacementOrder>
<iConstAppearance>100</iConstAppearance>
<iMinAreaSize>3</iMinAreaSize>
<iMinLatitude>0</iMinLatitude>
<iMaxLatitude>90</iMaxLatitude>
<Rands>
<iRandApp1>10</iRandApp1>
<iRandApp2>10</iRandApp2>
<iRandApp3>0</iRandApp3>
<iRandApp4>0</iRandApp4>
</Rands>
<iPlayer>100</iPlayer>
<iTilesPer>256</iTilesPer>
<iMinLandPercent>0</iMinLandPercent>
<iUnique>6</iUnique>
<iGroupRange>0</iGroupRange>
<iGroupRand>0</iGroupRand>
<bArea>0</bArea>
<bHills>0</bHills>
<bFlatlands>1</bFlatlands>
<bNoRiverSide>1</bNoRiverSide>
<bNormalize>0</bNormalize>
<TerrainBooleans>
<TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_GRASS</TerrainType>
<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
</TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType>
<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
</TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_TUNDRA</TerrainType>
<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
</TerrainBoolean>
</TerrainBooleans>
<FeatureBooleans/>
<FeatureTerrainBooleans/>
</BonusInfo>

Now here's the entry from Warlords with BtS installed:

<BonusInfo>
<Type>BONUS_HORSE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_BONUS_HORSE</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BONUS_HORSE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<BonusClassType>BONUSCLASS_RUSH</BonusClassType>
<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BONUS_HORSE</ArtDefineTag>
<TechReveal>TECH_ANIMAL_HUSBANDRY</TechReveal>
<TechCityTrade>TECH_ANIMAL_HUSBANDRY</TechCityTrade>
<TechObsolete>NONE</TechObsolete>
<YieldChanges>
<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
</YieldChanges>
<iAITradeModifier>0</iAITradeModifier>
<iAIObjective>0</iAIObjective>
<iHealth>0</iHealth>
<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
<iPlacementOrder>1</iPlacementOrder>
<iConstAppearance>100</iConstAppearance>
<iMinAreaSize>3</iMinAreaSize>
<iMinLatitude>0</iMinLatitude>
<iMaxLatitude>90</iMaxLatitude>
<Rands>
<iRandApp1>10</iRandApp1>
<iRandApp2>10</iRandApp2>
<iRandApp3>0</iRandApp3>
<iRandApp4>0</iRandApp4>
</Rands>
<iPlayer>100</iPlayer>
<iTilesPer>256</iTilesPer>
<iMinLandPercent>0</iMinLandPercent>
<iUnique>6</iUnique>
<iGroupRange>0</iGroupRange>
<iGroupRand>0</iGroupRand>
<bArea>0</bArea>
<bHills>0</bHills>
<bFlatlands>1</bFlatlands>
<bNoRiverSide>1</bNoRiverSide>
<bNormalize>0</bNormalize>
<TerrainBooleans>
<TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_GRASS</TerrainType>
<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
</TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType>
<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
</TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainBoolean>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_TUNDRA</TerrainType>
<bTerrain>1</bTerrain>
</TerrainBoolean>
</TerrainBooleans>
<FeatureBooleans/>
<FeatureTerrainBooleans/>
</BonusInfo>

As you can plainly see, absolutely nothing has been changed regarding the total amount of Horses in the game since Civ 4 was first released.

 

[the Intricacy]

As you can plainly see, absolutely nothing has been changed regarding the total amount of Horses in the game since Civ 4 was first released.

Haha. Yes. So plainly see... I can see a sailboat in that code!

 

[BYC]

I haven't noticed. What I have noticed is a lack of happiness resources in many many many BtS games. It's so ungodly frustating to have 7-9 cities only having 5-6 pop because of lack of happiness.

 

[gunter]

Haha. Yes. So plainly see... I can see a sailboat in that code!

Same here,like those 3D dots pictures where I have never been able to spot anything but an xml code

 

[Plinko16]

Don't the map generating algorithm's have a pretty big influence on resource generation separately from the bonus files?

I guess that's a rhetorical question, since we know it is a major factor (example: Great Plains maps generate the same kinds of resources in the same general areas every game, Balanced Maps are supposed to balance strategic resource access among all Civs).

So it's not dependent solely on the BonusInfo file.

BTS has several new map algorithms that were not in Warlords or Vanilla, and may have all of them slightly different from Vanilla and/or Warlords.

So, the people beating the drum of that file not changing are not really refuting the suggestion. You'd have to compare the map algorithms between versions, or you could generate 25 maps, go into worldbuilder and count resources, neither of which I can do from work.

My anectdotal observation is that ALL strategic resources (copper, iron, horses, Ivory, coal, oil and uranium) are at least somewhat rarer in the games I have played in BTS vs. Warlords. I almost never have a start with one of them in BTS, I nearly always did in Warlords. In Warlords I have never had a late game without having all 3 of Coal, Oil and Uranium, but in BTS I never have had even 2 in my empire without warring specifically to get it.

 

[Sephlock]

LOL @ the Aztec lands comment.

Anyway, it seems like the game is specifically programmed to make me always lose the most ridiculously slanted (in my favor) sea battles.



I'm starting to get seriously paranoid about venturing out onto the water- even if I have ships 1 or 2 tech levels higher than my enemy, I'll still end up getting wtfpwned...

.

 

[Solipsism]

Speaking of which, is there a "realistic map" script out there? Just once I'd like to play on a generated map that doesn't have a checkerboard pattern of desert and mountains placed seemingly at random...

Try the tectonics mapscript. I never use anything else anymore, it is great.

The only downside is that you every once in a while has to establish an arctic fur imperium or be a struggling desert civ trying to fight your richer neighbor for some premium grasslands. But hey, that's how we all like it, right?

 

[Willem]

Haha. Yes. So plainly see... I can see a sailboat in that code!

Well the numbers are identical, so what's the problem?

 

[Willem]

So it's not dependent solely on the BonusInfo file.

The total number of resources is. The map algorithms only determine how the resources are placed on the maps. BonusInfo determines how many of each are supposed to be in the game. And based on the files I've presented, the total amount of Horses is exactly the same as it always has been.

 

[Yzman]

In my latest game I actually started with horses in my fat cross and I was Darius....I have never taken out the whole world so fast. My immortals were never meant against anything worse than a few archers.


Horses are very powerful early in the game, that is probably why they are a bit rarer.

 

[Willem]

Horses are very powerful early in the game, that is probably why they are a bit rarer.

I give up! Now I know how Columbus felt when he tried to prove the world was round.

 

[Silence101]

Horses are very powerful early in the game, that is probably why they are a bit rarer.

If I had to choose between copper and horses, I'd probably go with copper. The added mobility is nice, but chariots are easily countered, can't fortify, and don't get a terrain bonus - plus, a base chariot only has a strength of 4... So I guess I don't see them as being more powerful when compared to any other early strat resource.

I give up! Now I know how Columbus felt when he tried to prove the world was round.

Ha, ha - that's awesome. Well, I believe you.

 

[BYC]

If I had to choose between copper and horses, I'd probably go with copper. The added mobility is nice, but chariots are easily countered, can't fortify, and don't get a terrain bonus - plus, a base chariot only has a strength of 4... So I guess I don't see them as being more powerful when compared to any other early strat resource.



Ha, ha - that's awesome. Well, I believe you.

I rather have metal as well, but horses definitely give an unique advantage in pillaging mobility that cannot be replaced until tanks, gunships, and air units. Not having metal sucks, but if you play it right, a player can definitely survive without it.

It's good design that having both is highly desirable.

 

[Tiberias]

OK, I ran a quick, unscientific test. I generated a series of maps under Beyond the Sword, and then a series of maps under regular Civ4 (albeit with the most recent patch.) Settings were Pangaea / Large / Temperate, the other settings were the defaults. I then opened up each map in the world editor, saved it out, then went through with a text editor to count the Copper and Horses.

I got roughly the same number of resources in both series of maps--between nine and eleven of each, averaging ten, per map (number of players is eight, so that's slightly more than one per player.) So between default Civ4 and Beyond the Sword, it does appear to generate an equal number of critical resources. I haven't tried unpatched Civ4, too lazy to do so, but it should be easy to reproduce my results.

Interestingly, one map in the Beyond the Sword run had *far* more resources for both--fifteen for Horses and for Copper, which is far more than any of the other maps had for either. I have no idea why, and I was using the "Regenerate Map" option, so there's no possibility that the parameters had changed. It looks like, every once in a while you get a "resource rich" map that just has a lot more of everything--either that, or for whatever reason it had far more landmass, and consequently far more resources.

The one issue I haven't looked at is whether or not critical resources show up in the starting area. The game does look for "good" starting spots, and I think (not sure) that it takes into account resources that the player can't see yet. Actually, that's one variable which, if modified, can greatly affect the perception of availability of resources; if Beyond the Sword only takes into account visible resources, that would result in both Horses and Copper (and Iron, etc.) being more difficult to get. The problem is I can't check this on my maps, as I ran one series under Noble and another under Prince, and the difficulty level affects how favorable the starting area is, so I'd have to run a new series to check, and, well, I'm lazy.