Why are people so opposed to building wonders?

[Immortal7777]

I can't agree with the civfanatics war academy. First of all the great library if completed will give you technology all the way up to education so you might as well turn off your science completely and make money as your tech is handed to you. The statue of zeus and Knights Templar are a must considered how overpowered the civ that owns them are. I have been wiped out several times when ancient cavalry gather at my land. They have the mobility to take multiple cities and end a war almost instantly. Sun Tsu if you can get it gives you barracks is every city on the continent. Now I understand why you wouldn't want to build the colossus or pyramids on your first turn as that would leave you defenseless but if you have enough cities it isn't bad to build wonders.

 

[timerover51]

I can't agree with the civfanatics war academy. First of all the great library if completed will give you technology all the way up to education so you might as well turn off your science completely and make money as your tech is handed to you. The statue of zeus and Knights Templar are a must considered how overpowered the civ that owns them are. I have been wiped out several times when ancient cavalry gather at my land. They have the mobility to take multiple cities and end a war almost instantly. Sun Tsu if you can get it gives you barracks is every city on the continent. Now I understand why you wouldn't want to build the colossus or pyramids on your first turn as that would leave you defenseless but if you have enough cities it isn't bad to build wonders.

Personally, I am with you, but then I play the game for fun. However, prepare to get a lot of lectures as you are challenging a sacred tenet of orthodoxy. I made that mistake a long time ago.

 

[Theov]

There's nothing 'wrong' with building wonders on itself.
It's the dependence on Wonders that greatly cripple you in learning the game or prevent you to make the step to another level.

So having Ancient Cavalry and Crusaders is awesome - the only thing is that it sucks if you don't know what to do when you don't have them.

 

[timerover51]

There's nothing 'wrong' with building wonders on itself.
It's the dependence on Wonders that greatly cripple you in learning the game or prevent you to make the step to another level.

So having Ancient Cavalry and Crusaders is awesome - the only thing is that it sucks if you don't know what to do when you don't have them.

How does building Wonders keep you from learning the game? They are part of the game, I do believe.

 

[Everkane]

I think he said "dependence" instead of "building".

 

[templar_x]

on lower levels they simply do not earn their money, as the troops you could have built for the shields would have conquered lands already while you still were putting bricks into, say, your SoZ. and on higher levels you won´t be able to build the wonders as the AS already built them with their big production bonuses. the best way to get a wonder most of the times is to conquer it.

so in my understanding what the WA says is really only about dependence, and for once Everkane and myself seem to share one opinion. but my practice in that game tells me, that for fastest finish WWs are a good investment only at very few occasions, like the Lighthouse on a continents map when there is no safe crossing available otherwise. (but you still have to get it!)

no sacrileges are touched with your question in my eyes though. it is rather a boring investment calculation that brings you there

t_x

 

[timerover51]

on lower levels they simply do not earn their money, as the troops you could have built for the shields would have conquered lands already while you still were putting bricks into, say, your SoZ. and on higher levels you won´t be able to build the wonders as the AS already built them with their big production bonuses. the best way to get a wonder most of the times is to conquer it.

so in my understanding what the WA says is really only about dependence, and for once Everkane and myself seem to share one opinion. but my practice in that game tells me, that for fastest finish WWs are a good investment only at very few occasions, like the Lighthouse on a continents map when there is no safe crossing available otherwise. (but you still have to get it!)

no sacrileges are touched with your question in my eyes though. it is rather a boring investment calculation that brings you there

t_x

So, basically you are reciting the orthodoxy of the War Academy and stating that is the only way to play the game. And I assume that you only play on Pangaea maps so that you can attack early and often. What about those of us who play on non-Pangaea maps, and who like building things? When it comes to the War Academy, I am a total and complete heretic.

 

[Yoda Power]

I've never read much in the WA, so what I have to say may/may not be in accordance with that. I don't know.

Some wonders are better than others. A few I try to always get, some are left alone. I agree with Theov that dependence of wonders is a bad thing (i.e. you should have a plan B if the AI beats you to your wonder).

Here's my ranking for the unmodded game:

Always try to get:
Adam Smith's Trading Company - especially if you're a builder.
Hoover Dam

Go for it if you have a decent chance
Statue of Zeus
Sun Tzu's
Knight's Templar
Bach's Cathedral - especially on higher levels where unhappiness is a maximized (i.e. emperor and beyond)
Theory of Evolution
Universal Suffrage - only if you're a warmonger in Republic. If not it should be in the lower category or even the last.

Nice to have, but only if you know you can get them
Oracle
Mausoleum of M - can often be used as a fall back wonder when the AI beats you to another.
Temple og Artemis
Great Lighthouse - should by in the lowest category if you play Pangea. Should be higher if you by accident got stuck on an island with no way out.
Leonardo's Workshop
Sistine Chapel
The Internet

Never build
Great Library - only only only build this wonder if you are way behind in tech and know you can do it. Letting the AI build this wonder helps you. The AI will sell their techs to other AI for lots of money making them rich. You can get all that money and their techs by researching techs the AI hasn't gotten yet and selling it to them. Ironically not building the GL will give you the tech lead.
Great Wall
Megallans Voyage - should be in a higher category if you play an Arch map though.

I likely forgot some wonders.

 

[Aabraxan]

First, there's nothing wrong with building the Great Wonders, in and of itself. It's dependence on one that can be a problem. What do you do if you don't get that Wonder?

Second, building GWs, especially the early ones, slows down expansion. Rapid expansion is by no means the only way to play, but I use it quite a bit. It's hard to crank out settlers/workers/spears, etc., when one of your major cities is all tied up building a GW.

 

[templar_x]

So, basically you are reciting the orthodoxy of the War Academy and stating that is the only way to play the game. And I assume that you only play on Pangaea maps so that you can attack early and often. What about those of us who play on non-Pangaea maps, and who like building things? When it comes to the War Academy, I am a total and complete heretic.

not at all. no idea where you would derive that from either. actually it is continents most of the time, at least back when i played more often. in the last couple of years practically only XOTM and HOF, so whatever the settings of a game were there.
and that may be the actual difference, no heresy or whatever you call it. you state you are playing for fun, and wonders are a main fun element of the game. in my early civ days that was my way of playing too, and i tried to build as many wonders as possible. but people who play for optimized results i hardly see a competition by wonder builds, if it is not about a cultural victory... it is not reciting the WA or anything if i tell you that you will hardly find wonder builds in the winner games of either the XOTM or HoF tables. in my eyes you seem to argue against quite strong evidence, which may need a bit more than just your gut feeling to overcome.

however, there are counterexamples, but they are rare and specific. like, to get a top date science game into HoF-tables, you will often need that ultra-early Pyramids. I do not like strategies like that, but it is a matter of fact that it exists and rules these tables. but in XOTM games, building wonders is too risky and promises to little profit in most of the times, and they are more of an equivalent to a standard single player game anyway. in my eyes there would be the right place to show the superiority of a different strategy. and back at the time when i was playing just a fun game and built what i wanted, i was not heretic against the War Academy, but i simply did not play a game that was ever intended to be covered there.

t_x

 

[vmxa]

"Immortal7777 I can't agree with the civfanatics war academy. First of all the great library if completed will give you technology all the way up to education so you might as well turn off your science completely and make money as your tech is handed to you."

To me if you are not a strong player, then this could be a true statement. The reality is that the AI will not research fast enough for you to get much out of the GLB at level below emperor.

At emperor, it is likely to yield a few techs.

DG still not a good buy as the AI tends to get Education too fast and then the GLB is obsolete.

Deity, I played so few I cannot speak to it.

Sid, it is pretty important to get the GLB. I will work on a pre for it and do all I can to build it.

AW games changes the value to make it very important at Monarch or Emperor. Levels above that you probably will only get it from conquest.

Turning off research tends to be a bad idea in low level games as the AI is so slow at research, you are just helping them by not researching. Low level to me is below emperor.

Island maps makes the GLB less viable and it was not very viable anyway.

The important thing is in an easy game, do what you like (Digital Underground). The shields put into the GLB are better spent elsewhere. If you do keep researching, the GLB forces you to consider avoiding the top tree so as to not get Education.

That slows your research down.

"The statue of zeus and Knights Templar are a must considered how overpowered the civ that owns them are. I have been wiped out several times when ancient cavalry gather at my land. They have the mobility to take multiple cities and end a war almost instantly."

KT is about as important as Music, maybe a little more than that, lol. If you are unable to deal with Crusaders, it is a strong indications of what wonder addiction is all about.

First Chiv is an optional tech and in non AW games can be skipped. Second Crusaders are a one move unit and have a very short shelf life, if any.

I don't see how the AI can take multiple cities in non AW games at levels where you could build the KT. An other indication that you need to review how you are doing things.

There should not be enough time for them to accrue many Crusaders or if they have you should have cavs and at least muskets to deal with them. They only come out every 5 turns as I recall.

Should they have a lot of them, it would be very late in the game I would crush them with armies.

"Sun Tsu if you can get it gives you barracks is every city on the continent. Now I understand why you wouldn't want to build the colossus or pyramids on your first turn as that would leave you defenseless but if you have enough cities it isn't bad to build wonders."

I doubt any strong players would tell you to not build Sun Tzu, if you can. Here is the key to wonders builds. In the early game the shields are better used elsewhere in nearly all cases.

Mid game or later you have more options and can build wonders, without hurting other things. Those very early wonders requires you to give up production in the best towns at a critical point in the game.

In easy games, that is not an issue, in not so easy it can be a real set back. Take the Pyramids. Is it nice to have free granaries, of course. Do I need them, no. I would only make a couple of granaries anyway, so go ahead and build them.

You can chop and or disband to rush them, can't with a wonder. So that town is not out of production for a long time.

The number of cities you have is not a factor in early wonders as those are all going to be weak towns. The capitol and maybe one other may have some decent production.

Stop making settlers and troops to make a wonder can set you back. Again, lower level games do as you please.

The one common thing about all the players that run into trouble at low levels is they do not handle their economy well. Wonders is one of the reason, not the most important one, but one.

Don't confuse avoid wonder addiction with do not build any wonders at all. Like all general rules, there are exceptions. That is what experience is for, to know when it is an exception.

 

[timerover51]

it is not reciting the WA or anything if i tell you that you will hardly find wonder builds in the winner games of either the XOTM or HoF tables.
t_x

What gives you the idea that I worry about those at all? I have utterly no interest in them. Nor do I analyze the game from a cost-benefit analysis. I play the game to relax and have some fun. I may spend some time trying to figure out why the AI is programmed to act the way that it does, and bemoan some of the limitations that are hard-coded in the game, but that is because I also enjoy playing around with the editor. What I do there definitely is not in accordance with the purist elite.

If you want to worry about how your game compares to the Hall of Fame, that is your problem.

Hate having to switch avatars, but guess I will have to.

 

[templar_x]

sorry timerover, i do not seem to understand at all what your posts are about then. you just want to play the game without competition and comparability? then who hinders you to do so or argues against that??? and, what are you arguing for at all???? well, whatever, i hope you like that ship avatar...
however, there was simply a question asked and an answer given:
Q: Why are people so opposed to building wonders?
A: because they try to compete with the "purist elite" and in this kind of game many wonder builds simply do not make sense.
anyone will still be free to realize now he is none of this purist bunch and go away, keep his avatar and live and play happily.
t_x

 

[timerover51]

Actually, I would prefer one of the HMS Alexandra belt-and-battery Ironclad, but a Monitor is fine. Not sure if a PT Boat is available, otherwise that one would be good.

As to the original question, Immortal7777, play the game the way you enjoy it.

 

[Theov]

I think he said "dependence" instead of "building".

in italics...

 

[Theov]

How does building Wonders keep you from learning the game? They are part of the game, I do believe.

I'll try to explain one more time what is my opinion on wonders:

Basing your game play on building wonders can hurt your development in becoming a better player.
That's because sometimes you don't learn how to keep your people happy/plan an invasion/use the sliders etc because it's taken care of by a wonder.

Building wonders (some) is a good idea. Being dependent on wonders is a bad idea.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

I remember one of the the hard lessons from moving up to Monarch a few years ago is that you're not going to get a lot of wonders, especially in the early game and on larger maps.

 

[MrRandomGuy]

I like you went WTH when I read about not getting dependent on wonders.

As a new player it doesn't make sense, but when you actually put that principle into place you find that you can do a pretty good job without that wonder. That's the point of breaking wonder addiction - to make you a better player.

In a game I'm playing someone built the Pyramids before me. A granary in every city on the continent is nice, but do you really need that? A granary only has a maintenance cost of 1 gp and half the food is saved when the city grows or a settler is made. You don't need a granary in *every* city you have. Yes it helps with growth, but if you placed some cities near your capitol with good natural resources like cows you can expand quickly anyway.

NEVER build The Oracle. NEVER NEVER NEVER DO IT (unless you're opting for a culture victory and need the culture.) It becomes obsolete very very quickly. What are you going to do when it becomes obsolete? Do you have a plan for it or will some of your cities fall into disorder?

The same is true for The Hanging Gardens. Don't bother. It lasts longer but what are you going to do when you reach Steam Power? The city that built the wonder may suddenly revolt when three happy citizens turn into unhappy citizens.

Do you need the Colossus? No. You can survive without it. Test this in a game by building it and take note of your income once you discover flight. You'll notice that it's hardly noticeable at all when it becomes obsolete. You're better off using that coastal city to build units or settlers instead of wasting shields on this wonder.

Can you survive without the Great Library? Yes. If you are in the tech lead then the GL is useless to you. If you are falling behind then lower your science research and buy techs from other civs.

Can you survive without Sun Tzu? Yes. Not every city needs barracks. Only build barracks in the cities you are planning to train your army. Is it painful to attack a civilization who has this wonder? Yes. Can you eventually beat them? Yes.

See where I'm going with this? Look at every wonder and ask yourself "in what ways can I plan to survive without this?"

Sure the Theory of Evolution is nice, but if you're in the tech lead it really doesn't matter. And if you're behind odds are someone will build it before you anyway.

 

[Theov]

I like you went WTH when I read about not getting dependent on wonders.

and this, my friends is why the comma (,) is important!

I like you, went WTH when I read about not getting dependent on wonders.

I, like you, went WTH when I read about not getting dependent on wonders.

I like you went WTH, when I read about not getting dependent on wonders.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

My advice is, build wonders only if you really, really mean it. And if you do, put the necessary effort into it.