Why are the Zulu always in Civilization

[phungus420]

No, races can mean discreet differences in a species or sub species. The marked difference in skin tone of humans, along with other phisiological and genetic differences is certainly enough to allow one to classify various human populations into distinct races. As I said I think you're confused by the degree of mixing that has occured with humans. Humans as a whole are likely to have mixed ancestry, as such very few individuals could be classified as a "pure" race. Which is what makes the racial supremacist arguments so ironic, the statistical probability a person doesn't have racially mixed ancestry is astronomically low (outside of isolated tribal groups). But just because humans by and large cannot claim pure pedigrees, does not mean racial groupings do not exist, or are not accurate distinctions to describe observable differences.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Pointless rant deleted by poster

 

[dannythefool]

I could see Aztecs, Babylons, and Zulu but you had never heard of the Greeks and Mongols? Seriously?

In the 80ies I had a computer game on my Apple II that was called Aztec, and for a long time that was all I ever read that mentioned the Aztecs. These days there are youtube walkthrough for this game btw....

I don't know about American public schools but avoiding the Greek seems impossible. Almost makes my pretty much ordinary European education with 5 years of Latin sound special.

 

[dannythefool]

Since when Is morality a factor when it comes to being a leader in Civ. Look at Genghis Khan and Stalin.

In some parts of the world, Genghis Khan is looked upon more favourably than the American leaders who are in the game... and most Russians don't think of Stalin as the slightly crazy, totalitarian dictator that he was. Even Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge was supported by the western world while Vietnam was a common enemy. I guess it's hard to find a past leader that is universally shunned. Hitler probably comes close though, but I'm pretty sure we're not going to see him in the game anytime soon (unless mods count, I know there is at least one that puts him in).

 

[phungus420]

But by the tenets of Protestantism, if I do not follow your faith, I go to Hell. Conversely, if you do not follow mine, you go to Hell. Nobody wins.

Lemon I stopped here and didn't read the rest of your post. This atribute is in no way unique to Protestantism. In fact Hinduism and Islam are noteworthy for the fact they outright claim that others outside the faith are protected by god (the hindus because they can claim varying gods, and the muslims because at least for abrahamic faiths they are all dhimis or people of the book). But most major christian sects carry this doctrine, only the Quaker and Unitarian sects are major groups of Christianity that do not make your claim, it is in no way isolated to Protestantism, Catholisism or Eastern Orthodox for that matter, blind faith is a requisite for escape from eternal damnation, and all the varying interpretations be damned. I suppose this is the main flaw people find with the most promenent forms of Christianity, there is no viable way to even place a bet in Pascal's Wager.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

Aztecs, Babylon, Greece, Mongolia, Zululand. If you can't tell, I went to an American public school.

Jesus. May I ask what years are we talking about? 80s, 90s?

Just sheer curiosity, because the people over here complain A LOT about the poor quality of our public schools. But I can't imagine a kid unaware of those civilizations. Not at the end of elementary school (10-11 years old) and even less so after the "middle" school (can't translate, it's a 3 years school before high school).
The only exception being, well, the Zulu. Maybe.

Probably flame material, but it's kinda shocking. I mean, Genghis Khan?
Some people over here (Italy) should seriously stop . .. .. .. .. .ing about everything.

 

[thekaje]

I assure you that this guy had an extraordinarily educationally barren childhood. I grew up in the USA, and I'm pretty sure I'd never heard of Babylon or the Zulus before 6th grade, but the other deficiencies are just absurd.

Blaming the "bad American public school system" is easy.

 

[Flying Pig]

Pah - when I was at school, not only did we learn about the exploits of the Spartans and Macedonians and all the rest of it, but we were taught to read them from authors in Greek!

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Deleted by poster

 

[Turquoiside]

On-topic, You could only just argue for 2, 7 and 28. All the others aren't exactly civ-material, and would only cause more threads like this

On another note, it is the type of discussion that gets threads locked. (I'm talking about the on-topic discussion, not the religious debacle this thread has since spiraled into. Sort of, usually locking about tat the beginning of the decline, though) No one can ever prove to one affect or another that a civilization is deserving or not. I remeber a thread called "Least Deserving Civ" about a year ago. This thread obviously reminds me of it, and this will probably be locked like it.

 

[Erik the Viking]

They have done very little in history to deserve to be in the game. The following civilizations deserve a spot over the Zulu

1. Israel/Hebrew
2. Austrians
3. Pueblo
4. Songhai
5. Libyans
6. Nubians
7. Hittites
8. Assyrians
9. Phoenicians (probably should take Carthage place since they FOUNDED Carthage)
10. Macedonians
11. Hungarians
12. Cherokee
13. Anazi
14. Goths
15. Huns
16. Poland
17. Aboringine
18. Polynesians
19. Brazil
20. Tibetans
21. Mitanni (Ancient Syria)
22. Philistines
23. Lombardy
24. Bulgaria
25. Fatamids Caliphite
26. Ghana
27. Any Civilization currently in Civ4
28. Iroqouis
29. Apache
30. Mississippian
31. Olmec
32. Minoans (Crete)
33. Italian City States (Venice, Pisa, & Genoa) in Middle Ages
34. Scotland
35. Ireland
36. Medea
37. Bactrans
38. Vandals
39. Parthians
40. Dacia

I cannot think of any great achievements the Zulu accomplished other than get their butts kicked by a couple of British regiments.

Also I think it is a MAJOR travesty that the Jews have never made it in as a civilization. They have their own religion in the game but no civilization.

at the rest of the civs ranked #27.

Armenia would make for a great addition to Civ 4. I doubt few countries in history have fought against so many enemies as the Armenians have throughout time. The nation has great cultural significance too (like for instance it was the first nation to adopt Christianity in the 4th century).

But anyway I'm more than happy with the nations included in Civ 4 as it is, except for maybe for the U.S. of America, who are not necessary at all (they don't have much of a history at all, may as well throw Canada and Australia in there too if you think they do).

 

[Flying Pig]

You can't have a game about world history without the USA

 

[Erik the Viking]

I disagree, the U.S.of A. is a very young country with little historical significance before the 20th century, it's only been of any real importance for about the last 70 years which is about three generations, which is a blink of the eye in terms of human history, and really the sun is already starting to set on that. Its dependency on Canada now for electricity, oil, and natural gas weakens the economic strength it's enjoyed since the collection of war debts from the two World Wars, and shatters its independence because it must have energy sources to survive. It's banks are falling apart, it's infrastructure is collapsing, it's housing market is a horrid mess, and it's manufacturing is leaving or going bankrupt, and that's just touching on the economic problems (and without getting into fresh water as a resource, which will be the next golden commodity and a very golden commodity it will be, of which the US will be a buyer, not a seller).

I'm certain the US still has a lot of history to make but unless it gets excellent leadership soon its power will wane and fade quickly due to the enormous consumption needs of the nation. As with the war for oil in Iraq the U.S. could probably try to take what it needs in the days to come by force but I think that they know that any major aggressive action against most nations will be met with total war by 21st century technology (biological warfare, nuclear warfare, etc) and will end in the total destruction of the US, if not the rest of the human race.

So I guess it depends on what you mean by world history. If you mean it in the shortest tense of the word then the Americans are a player. If you mean it in any other sense they certainly are not, as it was only a pair of centuries ago that they were shaped and formed by the British (who certainly are a major player in world history).

 

[thekaje]

But anyway I'm more than happy with the nations included in Civ 4 as it is, except for maybe for the U.S. of America, who are not necessary at all

 

[thekaje]

by the British (who certainly are a major player in world history).

Kinda depends on what you mean by world history.

 

[xchen08]

I disagree, the U.S.of A. is a very young country with little historical significance before the 20th century, it's only been of any real importance for about the last 70 years which is about three generations, which is a blink of the eye in terms of human history, and really the sun is already starting to set on that. Its dependency on Canada now for electricity, oil, and natural gas weakens the economic strength it's enjoyed since the collection of war debts from the two World Wars, and shatters its independence because it must have energy sources to survive. It's banks are falling apart, it's infrastructure is collapsing, it's housing market is a horrid mess, and it's manufacturing is leaving or going bankrupt, and that's just touching on the economic problems (and without getting into fresh water as a resource, which will be the next golden commodity and a very golden commodity it will be, of which the US will be a buyer, not a seller).

I'm certain the US still has a lot of history to make but unless it gets excellent leadership soon its power will wane and fade quickly due to the enormous consumption needs of the nation. As with the war for oil in Iraq the U.S. could probably try to take what it needs in the days to come by force but I think that they know that any major aggressive action against most nations will be met with total war by 21st century technology (biological warfare, nuclear warfare, etc) and will end in the total destruction of the US, if not the rest of the human race.

So I guess it depends on what you mean by world history. If you mean it in the shortest tense of the word then the Americans are a player. If you mean it in any other sense they certainly are not, as it was only a pair of centuries ago that they were shaped and formed by the British (who certainly are a major player in world history).

God in Heaven, you have to love people that have no clue what they are talking about, yet choose to make long rants on a board devoted to a game. Just to get you a sense of perspective, the Zulu Kingdom existed for less than a century between Shaka's reforms and conquests and its destruction at the hands of the British. At its height, it didn't have a fraction of the size, population, industry, or influence of the USA at independence. The same is true of a lot of the included civs. The USA has been a Great Power for over a century and a half and a Super/Hyperpower for half that. No Civ in history has ever achieved that.

Oh, and just to give you a clue, the USA remains the second largest manufacturer in the world (largest if you go by value produced), it was the richest country in the world even before WWI and any collection of "war debts," and autarky does not make for either strength or wealth, just ask North Korea.

 

[phungus420]

I disagree, the U.S.of A. is a very young country with little historical significance before the 20th century, it's only been of any real importance for about the last 70 years which is about three generations, which is a blink of the eye in terms of human history, and really the sun is already starting to set on that. Its dependency on Canada now for electricity, oil, and natural gas weakens the economic strength it's enjoyed since the collection of war debts from the two World Wars, and shatters its independence because it must have energy sources to survive. It's banks are falling apart, it's infrastructure is collapsing, it's housing market is a horrid mess, and it's manufacturing is leaving or going bankrupt, and that's just touching on the economic problems (and without getting into fresh water as a resource, which will be the next golden commodity and a very golden commodity it will be, of which the US will be a buyer, not a seller).

I'm certain the US still has a lot of history to make but unless it gets excellent leadership soon its power will wane and fade quickly due to the enormous consumption needs of the nation. As with the war for oil in Iraq the U.S. could probably try to take what it needs in the days to come by force but I think that they know that any major aggressive action against most nations will be met with total war by 21st century technology (biological warfare, nuclear warfare, etc) and will end in the total destruction of the US, if not the rest of the human race.

So I guess it depends on what you mean by world history. If you mean it in the shortest tense of the word then the Americans are a player. If you mean it in any other sense they certainly are not, as it was only a pair of centuries ago that they were shaped and formed by the British (who certainly are a major player in world history).

If humans have not destroyed themselves off in 1000 years, people will study the American Emprire along with the likes of the English, Roman, and Mongols.

The United States has dominated global politics for over half a century, and has established a defacto langua franca. It has troops stationed all over the world, from Okinawa to Germany, and it's financial/economic influence is so strong that when the US economy falters it sends the entire world into a global recession, and nearly a century ago the collapse of the US economy sent the entire globe into a great depression. The United States was the first nation based on the idea of consent of the Governed, or the Social contract, and today over 100 seperate nations base their political structure on that of the United States.

To claim the US has not been an influential, or by any measure "great" (whether good or ill is irrelevant, we can dispute whether or not Alexander was a prick, but he was still "great") is assinine, ignorant, and/or just plain foolish.

 

[sydhe]

Given how much of the game takes place after 1800 and the United States was a dominant power during most of that, it makes sense for the US to be in the game.

 

[volbound1700]

What race, man? There are no races within our species. Unfortunately I don't have the reference at hand, but there's been a study showing that it's perfectly possible for two Danish to be more genetically different between each other than they were compared to a guy in Zimbabwe.

I was talking about the Human Race as a whole. (This makes half of the posts since my last post pointless). They provided some good inventions and help progress the Middle East to some degree. Problem is, they are having trouble now getting out of the late Medieval Period with their governmental thoughts.

 

[volbound1700]

To the guy debating the USA.

The USA may be only 200 years old but we have made the top 5 in most rankings when you take most influential and powerful civilizations in all of world history.

Due to the sheer amounts of inventions, the unique civic systems, and our international influence in the 20th century, the United States has earned its place in all Civ games forever.

I mean no other human Civilization has traveled to the Moon yet. Yes, the USA is new but it has far greater influence then many of the Civilizations in the game. (Australia and Canada have never been world powers or produced major inventions or works of art).

I also don't mean to boast about my nation but this world today is highly dominated by American culture. I have been to many areas of the world and I see American culture (music, fashion, movies, food, etc.).

United States was the first "true" Democracy. How many Democracies exist today? How many nations have followed the American system? No nation has risen to power and had such a major impact on the world in such a small amount of time as the USA has since 1776 in the entire history of mankind.