Why Buff Byzantium UA?
- Thread starter Glassmage
- Start date
anandus
Errorist
There's already a Byzantium-thread, you might want to discuss it there.
I think it's one of the best, most versatile UA's there is, personally.
Edit:
There was a different title and openingspost just yet?
I think it's one of the best, most versatile UA's there is, personally.
Edit:
There was a different title and openingspost just yet?
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Why not just post in the other thread for this?
bonafide11
Worker
Yes, go post it in the other Byzantium thread, but I'll respond anyway:
1.) We don't know the full Byzantium UA yet, so we're not talking about "buffing" it. We're talking about what it fully entails. We know very little about them so far.
2.) All of the options you mentioned refer to options set at the beginning of the game. There's a difference between picking Germany and turning barbarians off so you discount your UA from the start, but that's your own choice. The Byzantium one isn't an option that can be turned on or off, it could be just that depending on how the game plays out, you may not get any use out of your UA.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
It's closer to not finding natural wonders first with Spain.
But we do have most of the contours of the ability now.
But we do have most of the contours of the ability now.
MadDjinn
Deity
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You could turn religion off (at least, modders might be able to do that) but then what's the point in playing with any of the civs that get a religion bonus at that point?
Just seems a little silly for people to ask for a buff without knowing how it works or how easy/hard it'll be to get a religion.
bonafide11
Worker
You could turn religion off (at least, modders might be able to do that) but then what's the point in playing with any of the civs that get a religion bonus at that point?
Just seems a little silly for people to ask for a buff without knowing how it works or how easy/hard it'll be to get a religion.
I don't think anyone is asking for a buff yet, I think we're all just speculating on how the bonus works. And many people think that bonus isn't enough so there must be more to it.
MadDjinn
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my first point was to 'back up' your own, and the 2nd was not directed at you. Could've made that more obvious.
though, Glassmage did actually ask for a buff. that's one
Maybe the people who don't think it's enough should wait to find out what 'enough' is first
That's basically my point.There are some details and questions about Religion that could answer if the UA of Byzantines needs a buff or not . One of them is about how religion will work for Non-founders,which wasn't answered yet .
Raiki
Warlord
That is Exactly what I'll do! It's brilliant! Can you tell me where I can pick up a copy? I'll get back to you in a day (or two...or three...or after just one more turn).
Or, because we can't get a copy for 31 days (and counting) yet, we can discuss what we've seen to help appease the CivFanatic inside of us.
(For the record, I do understand your point, and it *IS* valid. It just seems silly to not discuss what we know of something just because we haven't played it yet. This entire subforum is devoted to discussing things we haven't played yet.)
Also, I don't mind the new thread, so long as it stays to the "Does Byzantium's UA stand up to those we've already played and what we think we know about the UAs of the new civs?" Personally I think it's different/specific enough to warrant a thread that is separate from the general Byzantium thread.
Anyway, on the UA: With the disclaimer that we may not have seen every belief that the religion has to offer, I still hold the belief that from what we've seen so far, Byzantium's UA is underwhelming. None of the religious beliefs really seem powerful enough (either independently or synergistically) to qualify as an entire UA. It's just giving you more of the small bonuses that everyone will get (or at least everyone who founds a religion). A Unique Ability, in my opinion, should pack just a little more punch than that. If, for example, they did offer a free Great Prophet, either at a certain tech, or maybe after adopting a certain number of social policies, then I would consider this ability more than enough.
Actually, for my own personal contribution, I would say that Byzantine should be guaranteed to generate a Great Prophet the first turn they became eligible, rather than just having a percentage chance. Even that would be enough to make it worthwhile, in my opinion.
~R~
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
You still can't judge it in a vacuum. What if the Cataphract and Dromon are really good?
Raiki
Warlord
Then they're still units, and only good for war? And since they're replacing a ship and (presumably) the knight, only really good for offensive war, at that.
This would give the Byzantines only their weak UA to use if they're going for any victory other than Domination, which makes them near-useless for builders (like myself).
~R~
I wouldn't call it useless or near-useless, if it gives a new founder belief (and I assume it's either founder or enhancer) it would be excellent, you get to basically CHOOSE your Unique Ability from a list. How horrible could that be?
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Call it Plan A and Plan B. Plan A, found a religion and use it for whatever victory you want. If that fails, go for Plan B and conquer everyone (with UUs that arrive at the best time for war, imo).
MadDjinn
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apparently a lot for those without imagination.
but then, there's still more information to go about 'what' the 6th belief could be (limited type or totally available. At what point is it chosen, etc).
apparently a lot for those without imagination.
but then, there's still more information to go about 'what' the 6th belief could be (limited type or totally available. At what point is it chosen, etc).
I'm honestly leaning towards Founder/Enhancer because I doubt Firaxis would create a whole new list just for the Byzantines. It's a UA, but it doesn't merit it's own separate list for religion.
KillingMeSoftly
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We really have no idea what the extra belief entails. Is it a Founder belief? Enhancer? Follower? Unique ones that no one has access to, and are Byzantine only? Can the Byzantines access this 6th belief if they don't found a religion? When do they get it? Early, mid, late game?
So many What-Ifs, its difficult to really speculate how good or bad it will be without actually playing the Byzantines. But regardless to me it seems a little on the weak side, as none of the beliefs come across as particularly Unique Ability worthy, but some of them are close-ish. There's something to be said for versatility in being able to pick your UA at a whim, but also something to be said for going into the game with a strategy ahead of time and pursuing it. Also, as mentioned, the Dromon and (possible) Cataphract may be extremely good, or maybe not.
Raiki
Warlord
apparently a lot for those without imagination.
but then, there's still more information to go about 'what' the 6th belief could be (limited type or totally available. At what point is it chosen, etc).
Oh come now, that's hardly fair.
Just because I don't think getting to choose from a list of weak UAs is as good as getting 1 strong UA doesn't mean I lack imagination. If anything, I have too much imagination; But that's neither here, there, nor relevant.
And yes, as I've stated before (though, TBH, I'm not sure if those posts exist anymore): Whether the belief is chosen with the 1st, 2nd or 3rd Great Prophet, which list (or lists) the belief can be chosen from (I assume it's most likely either a follower or enhancer belief), and whether or not there are other beliefs we have yet to see that synergize well with the current beliefs all have a great impact on how objectively useful the Byzantine UA will be. For right now, however, with the information that we've seen so far, I'm underwhelmed.
Edit: Also, of course, whether or not you can enhance a religion you did not found. I find this unlikely enough, however, as to deserve only an afterthought.
Edit2(The Editing): So, yeah...pretty much everything KillingMe just said.
~R~
MadDjinn
Deity
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In that case, I'll take:
Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
Holy Order: Missionaries and Inquisitors cost 30% less Faith
and one of:
Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations
depending on what you need.
then I'd add (still get two followers)
Choral Music: Temples provide +2 Culture in Cities with 5 followers
Religious Center: Temples provide +2 Happiness in cities with 5 followers
Since you're going to have them anyways. Likely Piety would also be a good choice (even if not going cultural) and boom - spam cheap missionaries to get both beakers and gold/culture (depending on what you picked).
Neither Tithe nor World Church require you to flip the city to your religion, so Interfaith Dialogue can be used against any city that hasn't flipped. If the AI is good at using missionaries/inquisitors, they'll constantly give you more 'target' population to flip.
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