Why can’t we get a leader for Egypt to look like a Black African?

[Metecury]

If they so weak then give a rebuttal to each point. I never said Christianity I said Christendom which you don't know anything about it was the political agenda of European country under the Pope that encourage them to conquer none Pink and none Christians. Please do a lease a google search before trying to dismiss stuff you have no knowledge about.

This is not even wild revisionism, this is pure fiction, you should write a book. Provide some credible sources to back up your baseless claims please.

 

[GenyaArikado]

I'm literally perched for the moment the threadmaker starts arguing for black Harald Hadrada

 

[MistyRonin]

I'm literally perched for the moment the threadmaker starts arguing for black Harald Hadrada

Well Catherine de Medici was called the Black Queen, so she should have black skin too

 

[Browd]

Moderator Action: I urge everyone to take care with this subject. Race and racial history are often quite sensitive subjects and it is easy to offend others if you are not careful. Although we might ordinarily kick this discussion to the World History forum, it is somewhat relevant to the opening post, but please keep the focus on Egypt (and not hair color in central Europe or possible Moorish influence on the Spanish gene pool or similar irrelevancies). If you want to have a broader discussion about these issues, World History is just a few clicks away.

 

[Guandao]

I think Hatshepsut, Ramesses II, Thutmose III, Akhenaten, Djoser, and maybe Khufu and Narmer are all good choices for an alternate Egyptian leader.

They are all considered indigenous Egyptian for the most part.

 

[Zaarin]

I think Hatshepsut, Ramesses II, Thutmose III, Akhenaten, Djoser, and maybe Khufu and Narmer are all good choices for an alternate Egyptian leader.

They are all considered indigenous Egyptian for the most part.

I'd welcome any of them. While her in-game portrayal is entertaining, Cleo was a dubious choice IMO. As far as personality goes (since that seems to be a major criterion now), Akhenaten seems like a prime choice, and he'd move Egypt into more of a religious direction. I'm a little torn on Hatshepsut: I'd love to see her as she was a first-rate pharaoh regardless of gender, but having Cleo already in game may hurt her chances. Especially since Cleo's trade route bonus would be perfect for Hatshepsut, who hugely expanded Egypt's trade relations. I suppose they could give her some kind of bonus for trading luxuries. I'd be surprised to see Ramesses II: his real-life wondermongering is suggestive of a big personality (and a raging ego--"look on my works, ye mighty, and despair" and all that), but the wondermongering egomaniac niche is already filled by Qin Shi Huang.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

As far as personality goes (since that seems to be a major criterion now), Akhenaten seems like a prime choice, and he'd move Egypt into more of a religious direction.

I'd love to see Akhenaten. His ideas did not have much impact after his death, but still, during his lifetime he daringly overturned thousands of years of tradition and completely remade Egyptian religion. It's an amazing story, and thanks to the ruins of Amarna, we have (relatively speaking) a wealth of information about it.

He could possibly be depicted alongside Nerfertiti in his leader screen. Something like this.

 

[Zaarin]

I'd love to see Akhenaten. His ideas did not have much impact after his death, but still, during his lifetime he daringly overturned thousands of years of tradition and completely remade Egyptian religion. It's an amazing story, and thanks to the ruins of Amarna, we have (relatively speaking) a wealth of information about it.

He could possibly be depicted alongside Nerfertiti in his leader screen. Something like this.

And his reforms not only covered religion, but also art, government, the location of the capital. I've seen some people argue against him based on the fact that his reforms did not survive him and his effectiveness declined in his later years (largely believed to be due to health problems and grief), but there's no denying the fundamental ways he transformed Egypt during his reign--or how that might have continued had he not been succeeded by a sickly child. I too would love to see Akhenaten rule Egypt. Even viewing him in the worst light, he's far and away a better choice than Catherine or Cleopatra.

 

[Ikael]

I'd welcome any of them. While her in-game portrayal is entertaining, Cleo was a dubious choice IMO. As far as personality goes (since that seems to be a major criterion now), Akhenaten seems like a prime choice, and he'd move Egypt into more of a religious direction. I'm a little torn on Hatshepsut: I'd love to see her as she was a first-rate pharaoh regardless of gender, but having Cleo already in game may hurt her chances. Especially since Cleo's trade route bonus would be perfect for Hatshepsut, who hugely expanded Egypt's trade relations. I suppose they could give her some kind of bonus for trading luxuries. I'd be surprised to see Ramesses II: his real-life wondermongering is suggestive of a big personality (and a raging ego--"look on my works, ye mighty, and despair" and all that), but the wondermongering egomaniac niche is already filled by Qin Shi Huang.

Fear not, my friend! Game design always finds a way!

>>> Hasheput of the Egyptians

UA: Punt's expedition. Recieve a unique "sandalwood" luxury for each different city state that you trade with. Unlocks the ceremonial complex

Unique district: Ceremonial complex. Replaces religious district. Recieves faith bonuses for being next to wonders, and production bonuses if placed over a non-floodplain desert

Agenda: Will like you if you trade with her, will dislike you if you occuppy city states

That being said, Ramses "my monument is bigger than yours" and Akhenaten are great candidates for alternate Egypt leaders. And if they want to keep with the female rulers, Nefertiti could also be a good candidate, since she did rule side by side with Akhenaten rather than being a symbolic figure. We'll see what the developers have in mind.

 

[SMcM]

How about instead of giving Egypt black Nubian leaders, Nubia is added as a separate civ instead? Piye did not even rule from Egypt, so he would make more sense as a leader of a Nubian civ.

 

[Civciv5]

Ancient Egyptians were neither black, nor white, but BROWN.
Some were a lighter skin, while most were definitely brown. Only the Nubians in the south were dark to very dark brown aka "black".
They depicted themselves as brown, while they depicted the Nubians as quite a bit darker than them.

 

[kul]

Or, if OP here just want to play Civ VI as a black leader, then Kongo is already confirmed with a video and a unique ability altogether.

 

[Uberfrog]

This debate is always fun, but tends to go around in circles, because the premise is kind of open to interpretation, and a fantastically broad statement anyway.

"Ancient Egypt" generally refers to a nearly three thousand year period of history in a country situated at the cusp of two continents. The idea that there is an archetypical "Ancient Egyptian" makes no sense given the scale of the timespan and the geographical setting.

The Nile is an extremely fertile and desirable set of land that happens to sit along a navigable river at the boundary of Asia and Africa, and not too far from southeastern Europe. Before the invasion of Alexander and the beginning of the Ptolemaic dynasty that is usually considered the end of the "Ancient" era, Egypt was a Persian satrapy. Prior to that it has been ruled and inhabited by the Assyrians and Babylonians from Mesopotamia, the Kuhorsehockye Nubians from what is now Sudan, the Libyans from the modern Maghreb, and Hyksos and Canaanites from the Levant. With all these regional peoples either invading or trading or migrating to Egypt, the idea of some "pure" Egyptian becomes a little meaningless, just as trying to define what a pure "English" person is supposed to be after nearly 2000 years of Roman/Anglo-Saxon/Norse/Norman invasion and subsequent migration before, during and after the empire.

Similarly "black" is a term with multiple interpretations built on the last few hundred years of racism and imperialism. I think people talk in cross purposes when talking about "!00% black" people. There is no one black skin tone - the continent of Africa, as the origin of humanity itself, is fantastically diverse in shades of black and brown, even before any mixing of Arab or White features enters the picture.

Were the people of "Ancient Egypt" black in the sense that if they found themselves transported to the Jim-Crow-era in the USA that they would find themselves discriminated against? Almost certainly. While colour in their art is possibly more symbolic than realistic, looking at their paintings generally gives a pretty clear sense of a reddish but quite dark brown. A lot of people would probably describe that as being "black".

Were they "black" in the sense of having very dark skin? The art that contrasts them with darker-skin Nubians suggests probably not.

So, should they introduce a pre-Ptolemaic leader to Egypt in Civ VI? Wholeheartedly yes! And for my money they should certainly be depicted as one of the various shades of fairly dark reddish brown that the Egyptians usually did. Can we know for certain if it's accurate? No. Just like we don't know how long Pericles' beard was or what Gilgamesh looked like.

One thing is pretty clear: they certainly shouldn't look like white Europeans . This isn't Gods of Egypt

Now here's a bunch of fun Wikipedia examples of Egyptian art. I'm sure there is a debate to be had over how accurate the colours are, but it all gives a sense to me of a pretty dark brown (a lot of sun exposure in Egypt ) that would probably fall under the modern politicised umbrella term of "black" for most people.

I particularly like the last one, from, the Book of Gates. I know it's a modern reconstruction, and have no idea how faithful the colours are to the original, but it gives the impression of a cosmopolitan civilisation that had links with a lot of different people from the wider region.

Spoiler :

 

[otaman1]

It's been genetically proven that Ramesses II had red hair and was light skin. No sub-Saharan ethnicity has the red hair gene. When scientists found the mummy of King Tut, they did a genetic research on it but didn't publish anything. Many think it's because he has a lot of European genes or has Jewish genes.

 

[Ikael]

Another thing that adds to the mystery of the Egyptian heritage is the fact that Egyptian ancestors did not inhabit neither north nor sub-saharan Africa... they lived in what is now the Saharan desert, back when it was a fertile savannah grassland dotted with lakes. Since there are no "natives" to these deserts nowadays, it is hard to guess how they looked.

It's been genetically proven that Ramesses II had red hair and was light skin. No sub-Saharan ethnicity has the red hair gene. When scientists found the mummy of King Tut, they did a genetic research on it but didn't publish anything. Many think it's because he has a lot of European genes or has Jewish genes.

Knowing the current Egyptian political's sheanigans, I would dare to say that they probably could trace Jewish genes (they are not exactly on best terms with Israel nowadays).

 

[moysturfurmer]

Bit off topic but can we address Carthage? Was Hamilcar/Hannibal really as white as they're often depicted. Some cheesy History Channel show about the fall of Rome depicted them as black, which made sense to me, but I've been wary about taking The History Channel at face value ever since they aired multiple documentaries about whether or not Hitler was a gay alien (this is not a joke).

 

[Uberfrog]

Bit off topic but can we address Carthage? Was Hamilcar/Hannibal really as white as they're often depicted. Some cheesy History Channel show about the fall of Rome depicted them as black, which made sense to me, but I've been wary about taking The History Channel at face value ever since they aired multiple documentaries about whether or not Hitler was a gay alien (this is not a joke).

Carthage was a Phoenician colony, and the Phoenicians come from what is now Lebanon. I think images of them are rare but they would presumably be similar to other Levantine people.

As a member of the ruling class, Hannibal would be able to trace his lineage back to Phoenicia, but Carthage was at this stage a well-established entity in its own right with a history of many centuries. There will have been a large degree of mixing with the Libyan and Berber locals and other regional people- again as a regional power and a trading empire, Carthage would not be ethnically homogeneous. The degree of mixing in Hannibal himself is obviously unknown. Depictions of him tend to be quite Romanised for obvious reasons.

Like the Egyptians he was unlikely to be very dark black. But he could well be dark-skinned enough to be described as black today. We just don't know.

 

[Zaarin]

Bit off topic but can we address Carthage? Was Hamilcar/Hannibal really as white as they're often depicted. Some cheesy History Channel show about the fall of Rome depicted them as black, which made sense to me, but I've been wary about taking The History Channel at face value ever since they aired multiple documentaries about whether or not Hitler was a gay alien (this is not a joke).

Carthage consisted of a Levantine superstrate over a Numidian/Berber substrate. Levantines are typically light to medium olive; Berbers typically medium to dark olive. The Carthaginians considered themselves "Chanani" (Canaanites/Phoenicians) and it's likely that their aristocracy largely kept to themselves or other Phoenician colonies when selecting brides, so in all likelihood Hamilcar and Hannibal were probably more Levantine than Numidian. But that's all speculation; we don't have the sort of accurate genealogies for the Carthiginians that we do for the Ptolomies or most pre-Ptolomaic Egyptian dynasties. So in all likelihood Hamilcar and Hannibal looked Lebanese or Syrian, but perhaps somewhat darker--if only because the North African sun is hotter than the sun in Canaan and both Hamilcar and Hannibal were warriors and generals who would have spent a lot of time outside.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

"Ancient Egypt" generally refers to a nearly three thousand year period of history in a country situated at the cusp of two continents. The idea that there is an archetypical "Ancient Egyptian" makes no sense given the scale of the timespan and the geographical setting.

I think your general points are totally spot on, especially on the silliness of applying modern racial terminology retrospectively, but it's worth noting that Egyptians *were* remarkably consistent in how they depicted themselves artistically for all three thousand of those years. And for that time they certainly saw themselves as one people with a clear, unbroken Egyptian identity. Not that there wasn't a lot of foreign influence and immigration, because there was, just that through it all we see a lot of continuity in Egyptian art.

 

[Zaarin]

it's worth noting that Egyptians *were* remarkably consistent in how they depicted themselves artistically for all three thousand of those years. And for that time they certainly saw themselves as one people with a clear, unbroken Egyptian identity.

It's also worth noting that, except during the Amarna period, Egyptian art was highly formulaic. Women were portrayed a sort of ochre color, men a darker red color, gods/goddesses a gold color, Nubians black, "Asians" (i.e., Canaanites, Syrians, etc.) as a lighter color, etc. Egyptian art was meant to depict ideals, not reality.